S03 – E02 with Dr Dame Ann Limb.

In this second episode of EdInfluence Season 3, we hear from Dame Ann Limb DBE DL FRSA FCGI, who describes herself as ‘a philanthropist, mover and Quaker, trying to navigate her way through life by doing least harm to people and planet’. 

Ann is currently Pro Chancellor of the University of Surrey, Chair of the City & Guilds of London Institute, and Board member of LTE Group in which capacity she is Chair of Governors of The Manchester College. 

In March 2023, Ann was named inaugural Chair of the Lifelong Education Institute, established by ResPublica, to take forward a vision for whole-system reform. Ann co-chairs the FED Ambassadors.

Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn.

Chapters

• 5:42 Accountability and governance
• 9:16 Entrepreneurship in public service
• 24:28 Courage in leadership
• 27:44 Leaders to look up to
• 34:29 Influence and legacy

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the latest episode of EdInfluence. I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Anne Limb. Thank you, Anne for joining me today. I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are as a leader. Well, Nick, thank you for having me, and it's a delight to be here. I was born in, the 1950s in Moss Side in Manchester, and one of my earliest recollections is helping my father in the butcher shop. I was the eldest of two children, and my sibling, my sister wasn't born then. but I was exposed at a very early age to seeing my mum and dad in a work environment, doing stuff essentially to, earn a living, and to keep us, to sustain us. so I never thought of that as leadership, but my story is that, that my father just involved me, in everything he did, I mean, I don't quite mean, boning a lamb joint or something. It wasn't as sophisticated as that, but I just used to help him. I used to help him with the customers. I used to talk to the customers. I used to help him carry meat in and out of the fridge. I used to help him wrap it up. I don't think I'm wrong in saying this initially, it probably was in newspaper. We are talking about mid fifties, but it did, it did get wrapped up in other more hygienic things a bit later on. But anyway, too much detail. The point here is that I felt I learned a lot of skills without being told that they were skills that I was being learning, and that I was given a role model, in my father who accepted my mother, to work as equals, in the shop, and where I was accepted as somebody who could be kind of part of the team and finding some meaning and purpose, in work and doing something useful. And I think that little cameo from very early on probably, not only tells you a little bit about the kind of life I had, even though obviously people much younger than me will need to use their imagination to to think what a butcher's shop in Moss Side in the 1950s might have been like. But significantly, whatever situation and environment you find yourself in, some of those experiences I had at quite an early age, I think are useful, in the leadership roles that we find ourselves in schools and in organisations and businesses. Are there any experiences from that time that you, you've gone back to a few times in terms of acting as a leader? I think the enduring one, and I only came to realise this when in my early thirties, I actually became principal of a further education college. So I became the leader, if you like, is that, I obviously, had exposure to a kind of world of service, even though service for my father was, was serving customers to make a living, as I've said. And I chose public service, the public sector, but service, in my case, public, as I say, where you could also be, if I can use the word entrepreneurial, you could have an eye, to being innovative. And, certainly when I came into further education in, the seventies, but then when I became a principal in the 1980s, and then that led up to the incorporation of colleges in 1992. Those skills of, putting the student first, serving the student, serving your staff, but actually also being more, entrepreneurial within the community. And particularly as I'd moved then to become principal of Milton Keynes College, which was in a growing city, continuing to grow city. I'm still, I'm speaking to you from Milton Keynes now. and so all that impetus to start new businesses, to grow new businesses, to use skills, in the workplace, to grow the community, to develop a prison education here that we did. When somebody said to me, oh, you are an entrepreneurial public servant, I thought that was wonderful. I thought, yes, I am. So, yes, it does connect back to the fact that in my dna, was a role model of really, an entrepreneurial, shop owner, you know, butcher's shop owner, who'd made his own life. And my father was both disabled and had very little education. So I mean, he never thought of himself as disadvantaged, but he made his life in that way. My mother was a bit more educated. And, the fact is those entrepreneurial skills I learned from them and applied in public sector. So what would you say, 'cause I'm conscious you've had lots of different roles, and what would you would say the mission that connects your leadership roles is? That's a really lovely question. because I think I've been in a situation where, because I was quite young when I became principal of Milton Keynes College, I was 34, and I did that role for 10 years, and then I did a second principal's role, and then I went into the Civil service and led, three major programs in the Blair Government days nationally, in educational terms, I experienced the accountability of being the single leader, you know, the CEO in three different situations, in quite an intense way. I have huge empathy with head teachers of schools and executive heads of academy groups and college principals, etc, because the buck really does stop there, you know, as it does if you are a CEO of a business or a charity. I then was able to experience a different kind of leadership, sort of leadership of governance, because in my early fifties, by choice, and because I'd had all the experience at an executive level in those three different environments I've just mentioned, I kind of didn't want to keep replicating that. And I didn't want to move into, or need to move into a kind of a fourth CEO role. I made a point of really trying to apply some of the leadership learning and the experience of being a CEO, but from the point of view of being a chair of a board. And in fact, when you and I met, I was chairing an academy chain, an early, chain of group of academies. and I've gone on to chair a whole range of other things. So the leadership in governance terms. for me, I have benefited hugely from taking the learnings of my, life as a CEO executive into the non-executive more coaching sphere, but also as, as the guardian of the, you're a governor of something, you are, and in a governance role, you are kind of the guardian of the, and the steward of the, of the mission and the vision and the, finances and the strategy of the organisation. And, you can do that and hold it with your CEO without having the pressure of the day-to-day operational leadership. and I always feel that the best organisations, the best schools, the best businesses are probably, likely to have at their helm both a very good CEO and exec team, and a pretty good chair and, board of trustees, governors, you know, exec board of directors. and if you can keep that together, then you, you've got the full spectrum of leadership. you talked about entrepreneurship and service and public service in your leadership role. How did that translate when you was moving into that sort of governance leadership you just talked about there? How did entrepreneurship show up there? Well, if I look at the portfolio of activity I've had over coming up for 20 years now, certainly 18 years anyway, in my fifties and sixties.'cause I, I've just turned 70 and I kind of started this, interest in, in governance, um, in my early fifties. I was just 52 ish. So, I've benefited because the entrepreneurial outlets, have for me, found their way through actual involvement in big business. So I sat on the board of the PLC and, it wasn't a big corporate company, but the whole, way of governing a corporate body and the account accountability you have to shareholders, was both learning for me, but a huge experience for me. And the fact is that company had to be very commercial and had to make, you know, had to make money. So I was really pleased that I could be somebody who had had a public sector background, but I could move into and translate those skills and develop, the organisation, actually the company, which, which I know I did in the nine years I was involved. So it was, it was sort of helpful to me that, um, I had some understanding of, of being enterprising really, and a valuing, enterprise and valuing wealth creation, which I do, you know, but I think the place, it's best now exemplified, interestingly, is in my role at the City & Guilds, of London Institute. City & Guilds is a Royal Charter charity. but we are a major, corporate business as well you know, we're obviously an awarding organisation, a regulated awarding organisation, but actually we employ, I think it's nearly 1500 people in 200 countries across, the globe. And, and we have a range of, of businesses that actually are there to fulfil, wealth creation, to encourage enterprise and, entrepreneurship to develop, employ, to develop skills for employability. We are a skills training organisation amongst, other things. And, for me, the kind of, entrepreneurial public servant or, or publicly minded entrepreneur, more publicly spirited entrepreneur, you could, phrase it either way, is encapsulated in that kind of big charity, role. So it's purpose driven, it's values led,, and those are the things that define, but both types of arena in which I've, I've worked. And I, I think that's the kind of, golden thread that runs through, you know, I have to have an - I have to work in an organisation where it exists more than just to make money, but to make money, to make a difference, is what it's all about for me. I wanted to take a cue from one of your more recent roles, because I know you have lots of different hats, but Chair of the Lifelong Education Institute and sort of, I'm not quite sure how to put it, but I suppose where is, where is the, the growing edge for you as a leader? Where are you in terms of still learning as a leader these days? well, that's a very nice segue in, because the only reason I took this role on is because it's a challenge to my own learning really. so where I am is genuinely believing in lifelong education. And although I've lived, a longer life of than you, maybe many of the people listening to this, I don't think it does stop until you know the point at which your, brain and body cease to function. So I do genuinely believe in lifelong education, and I, I do think we probably don't give enough, still don't give enough attention to this in this country. I don't think we necessarily value the wisdom of our older generations. I don't say we have to venerate the elderly, and I don't think that necessarily all older people are wise, but I do hugely believe in it intergenerational learning. I saw that when I was chair of the Scouts. I a brilliant organisation for young people, middle-aged people, old people, to truly share in doing stuff that is life enhancing together. but I don't think the education system in this country really has a vision for lifelong education. we are still very compartmentalised. We still get politicians of every political persuasion only interested in where the votes might be. So put money into schools or put money into early years, or, oh, well, the universities are now starting to create a little bit because their funding is down because we haven't got as many foreign students so well, we better listen to them. And it, it's very, very divisive. And I don't think it's easy for those different sectors of, of education to relate to each other either. I mean, many attempts are made at doing that. and particularly at local level. so, you know, collaboration and coordination does exist, but it almost exists despite the system. So the idea of the, Lifelong Education Institute came out of one of the many, lifelong education commissions that there have been around, over the last few years, and from different origins. So, I mean, I won't dwell on those, but Respublica picked this up. Chris Skidmore chaired the commission, and he is no longer going to be an MP after the next election. He's moving into, has moved into a different field of endeavour to do with climate change, and, developments in, environmental, sustainability. and they were sort of looking for somebody who might help, regardless of politics, you know, and regardless of policy, might try and just get lifelong education, a bit more centre stage and sort of talked about. yeah, that we've tried, we've got so far a, successful, satisfactory number of institutions from the HE sector, from the FE sector, from schools engaged just to - it's to campaign really, effectively to campaign. And our very short term aim, we're engaged in this now. And, I'll just end, with this is obviously we will have education manifestos coming, or we'll have manifestos coming from political parties. because we all know we've got an election at some point in the next 12 to 18 months. So the, the aim of the, lifelong Education Institute is just to give a series of thought provoking, you know, pay attention to this, to whichever political parties might pick up, some of the ideas. And, maybe get something, in the manifestos of each of the three main parties that could be translated into, policy. It does seem like an ideal time to, to try and do that. and picking up on something you said then about intergenerational, learning, what if you were going to give advice to someone, if I call them a learning leader, what would be the best advice you would give them? well, I think this is advice I'd give to anybody, really, but I think it absolutely matters if you are leading something I.e. if you are in a situation where somebody is looking to you, to take authority of the role. So, you know, it might be a fixer in Cubs to go back to my scouting analogy. You know, it might be a form captain in the school if we still have such things.,I'm sure my language is, rather old fashioned there, but, you know, anybody who, it might just be a team, it might be a team leader. so it can be whatever position you as an individual, find yourself in where people look to you, to lead. And my advice is, just lead from the integrity of your own being. i.e. just be you. Don't try and be anybody else. because if you have in your head the concept that there is a perfect way to be a leader, or there's a good way to be a leader theoretically that might be helpful. And I'm not in any way wanting to diss in any way leadership training or leadership theory or an understanding of all that is required in a leader. But if it isn't connected to the way you understand your own self and the degree to which you have any self-awareness or any, or a fashionable word is emotional intelligence, isn't it? But, you know, you might not call it that, but you just need to be, comfortable enough with yourself to lead from that place of authenticity. and the second thing is always to think that you might be wrong, because, if you surround yourself with, people who will challenge you, and you are not defensive about receiving feedback and criticism, and if you have a good coach, which is an essential part of leadership these days, and I think a very good development in the way leaders go, the way leadership has gone particularly, these days, then you can- you will always have to bear the responsibility on your own, the accountability on your own or with your chair, as I've said earlier on. you can't put the leadership burden, or indeed the leadership glory onto anybody else, you have to, if you're in charge of something, in an executive sense, you have to accept that accountability, so you need to be sure that you're up to that, you need to be sure where you can go if you, if you have doubts, which you will, and that you can have somebody to talk- a range of people actually, that you can talk through, the doubts and be properly challenged and properly scrutinised so that you don't surround yourself in a little bubble of being right or being righteous. and I think if you put those sorts of things in place, those mechanisms in place, and you try and stay healthy and sane and reasonable, and don't expect yourself to be a super hero or get everything right all at once, and you pace yourself, then, you know, most people who go into leadership positions want to do a good job. You know, they don't take it on lightly. And despite all I've said, they don't take it on alone because usually there is hopefully a good chair behind them. I mean, we are doing this, although I know to be broadcast a bit later, but, on the day when they've just announced the new acting chair of the BBC, but I just draw attention to that because I think what happened to Tim Davy, , was that he was left on his own as a CEO, particularly over the, well, not particularly, especially in those circumstances of the Gary Lineker tweets. And actually it all went pear shaped because he couldn't, at that time, properly refer to his chairman because there'd been some controversy over his chairman. I mean, that's the circumstances around all of that and not what is is important there. It's just an illustration of where, if it's a CEO, you don't have your, chairman, on your side or around and with you to talk things through, or your chairwoman or your chair, then, it's not a good place for any leader to be in, because what you can't do, is share that with anybody who you are accountable for. That's the loneliness of the, you can't begin to talk about it with your deputies or anybody else. and you shouldn't, in my view, talk about it and deal with it too much with your family, because that intrudes upon, I'm not saying the personal and the professional are, totally separate, but, I think that that's another area that has to be navigated by the leader. So that they don't, they don't use their wife or husband or partner as a coach. So the only places you've got to go are your, you know, coach or your, peer, another peer group, another CEOs of other organisations and those sorts of networks or indeed, your chair. But when it comes to the actual decisions about things, it can only be you and the chair. and that's where it often goes wrong. What role do you think courage has in leadership? well, it's there definitely because, because sometimes you do have to stick your neck out, and have the courage to use the phrase, the courage of your own convictions. otherwise you wouldn't be, as I've said, be true to yourself. You wouldn't be authentic. I doubt that many of us actually ever think we're being brave or courageous. I feel it's more something that people might say of an action or a decision that's taken. what I think you have to have as the leader is, a very clear head and, and rationale for why you do something combined with the empathy I've spoken about, you know, and the understanding of the impact it will have on people. And then finally, if the word is courage, you have to have the courage to accept that whatever the decision about something, you will know how you're going to deal with it. You're either gonna accept it or you're going to challenge it. I think self-knowledge and, knowing where your, own strengths and weaknesses are, are probably as important ingredients as saying, you know, your courageous. , I think the people who I've seen who are really courageous in my life are people that have gone out and done things that I would've, I personally would've been, too timid or really too scared to do. you know, true courage is, do you remember that incident at the fish mongers when, passes by just tackled two guys with knives, you know, or, and they were the young students from Cambridge working with Pres prisoners who, we were trying not to get them to re-offend. I mean, people who tackle, subversives or terrorists or go and try and save somebody's life. I think courage, that's the word that I would use to describe those sorts of actions. I think, you know, taking on a school, a failing school or academy group or, or turning a college round or you know, taking the, fight to the unions or something. I think it's a part of the job. I don't really think, I don't think you need very brave girl batches for doing that. And very brave boy batches for doing that. Listening to you talking about other people with courage, and you gave some examples, I was just wondering about thinking of a leader that you may have followed in your career or your life, and why did you follow them? A leader? A leader, who I've followed with interest, if you see what I mean. is that what you - Yeah, I either followed, actually they've led you ultimately. Oh, well, this is very interesting because I, worked out for myself in my mid thirties that, as my own psyche was developing, and my own learning was increasing that I probably unconsciously become, a college principal having started only a decade earlier as a part-time teacher, because I had had such core managers and leaders above me. And that absolutely- not withstanding, everything I've said about my family, but I'm now talking about my experiences in further education, essentially between, the mid seventies and the mid eighties. I mean, you know, I could be rude in the choice of adjectives I use, but, I don't think I got any help. I actually encountered quite a lot of opposition, I think, and I had pretty poor managers and leaders, if not downright corrupt ones, now long since dead. it was not a nice or good place, or certainly my experience of it at that time. So I, I never had an example of somebody I, looked up to in that sense when I was developing my career, as a teacher. But what I did have, when I was a pupil at an all girls state grammar school in Cheshire in the 1960s was I had fantastic women, teachers. And I think that the best leader, for me, was one of those teachers. and everything I've spoken about in terms of leadership, Sandra Leach, who went on to be a head teacher in a school in Hampshire, she was a geography teacher when I first had her as my geography teacher. she would've exemp-, she did exemplify. And in the same way my parents influenced me, you know, that, Sandra as that teacher and other teachers of her ilk, in that school, I think were terrific leaders. what I have done though is follow with interest. So I haven't got- I can't point to an educational leader, who I think is outstanding and I would've liked to have been like or followed, or who influenced me. And I don't mean that to be arrogant, it is just a fact. But there have been other, there are other leadership figures that I look to who I think show, the kind of qualities and characteristics of leadership I've been drawing attention to in our talk today. and I mean, you can never know because you don't know these, people closely if you've not worked with them, you know, you can only see the outputs of their work. I personally always think of somebody like Nelson Mandela, I know many people do, but, an extraordinary, gifted human being really, who led South Africa, in a way that I never imagined I would see in my lifetime, having become a member of the anti-apartheid movement, age 16, as I went into the sixth form at, aforementioned Girls grammar school. So that was just an astonishing change in my lifetime. And I think a great leader, in all sorts of ways. So there are people like Mandela, that I've looked at, I actually, you know, you often think of politicians, this is the case as well, but, I think there's all all sorts of other ways of quietly leading. there's a difference between power and influence. And, I think our current king, whilst he was the Prince of Wales for all those years, was the most wonderful example of influencing in ways that people are only now actually acknowledging. So all his work on, climate and the environment way ahead of its time is only now being recognised. but he did that without having the power of the, role of the sovereign he now has, but through massive influence. and so I think there are influencers as well who are great, who show great leadership qualities, but we don't, give as much, attention to those. We don't kind of, big them up in any way, or talk about them because we're very preoccupied with the position of leadership and the power that goes with that and the leadership models that accrue to that. And, I almost like to think of the people who are quietly influencing and leading. I mean, another example would be look at what Gordon Brown does now and has done since he became- since he ceased being Prime Minister. I mean, he had that power as Prime Minister, and, none of these are political points, but I mean, he kind of, you know, where did it go? But since then, he has influenced massively globally in terms of the education of particularly children, around the world. And, actually you could say the same, in a different sort of way about Tony Blair. But you know, how you use your time when you don't have a position of power, but you still have some influence, I think is topic of another podcast, really. But there we go. Well, I think we're nearly out of time, but, I was going to ask you, thinking of you, Anne, in terms of influence, what legacy would you like your role and influence as a leader in the many varied organisations you've contributed to, to be? Well, I actually think that I am, a much more evolved human being now, you know, in the last sort of 25 years of my life than I was in the first 25 years when I was doing all the, leading organisations and, doing the things I've been, touching on in our conversation. I think as the head of a college and as CEO of Learn Direct, I think I was absolutely recognised as, from the feedback people, gave me, as somebody who genuinely cared about learning, was inspiring because of that, who wanted to help people learn and be the best they possibly can. And I'm sure I left, those, the organisations I led having, enabled people to feel that they were in a, a better place and they'd had opportunities. So I think a sort of inspiring leader is probably what they would've, said. And, I think a kind leader. But what's happened since, on the influencing side, which I think is equally important, is actually when I've helped somebody in a CEO leadership role, make a decision that was a better decision because they kind of consulted me, but where I didn't really feature in the outcome. And the best example of that for me recently is that because I worked with, and I know he won't mind me mentioning his name, I worked for six years as the chair of the Scouts with the chief executive, Matt Hyde, a superb chief executive, a brilliant leader in many, many, many ways. And, after I'd left the scouts, he and I have stayed in touch. And, two and a half or so years ago, he'd approached Tim, aforementioned Tim Davy because of comic relief at BBC with an idea about doing something to really boost volunteering and the engagement of all people in volunteering in this country. And he wrote, to me and explained, Matt wrote to me and explained this idea that he pitched to Tim Davy, about a volunteering occasion, a big national push around the coronation. And, he said, Tim Davy doesn't want to do this, you know? And I said, no, don't do it. Around the coronation, sorry - it was around the time of the Queen's Platinum Jubilee and, BBC were full of the pattern in Jubilee, and they didn't want to do it. And I said, don't be discouraged by that. Wait. it's a great idea, but do it at the time of the coronation. Now, we didn't know when the Queen died, only this time, well, she didn't die until September, at 2022, but the time of the Jubilee this time last year, we didn't know she was actually gonna die quite so soon, did we? But anyway, I said to Matt, look, it's a great idea, but, but wait and try it, when there is a coronation. And indeed, he did that. And actually that led to, the Coronation celebrations just four or five weeks ago where there was an extra day added to the events, and it was called The Big Help Out the National Volunteering Day. and he texted me that evening, and I mean, that whole day went brilliantly. And he even managed to get the now Prince and Princess of Wales and the three children at a scouts event in Slough covered by the tv. And I texted him that day to say, it's been- this is what I've done for the big help out. 'cause I'm still doing stuff. and I said, well done. You must be really, really pleased. And his reply was, well, Anne, actually that's success is yours because you told me to wait until the coronation. I mean, actually he has made it happen. But that's where I think the influence and the acknowledgement, nobody would ever know that. And Well, I've now told you, but I mean, I don't think it's a secret, but, what I'm saying there is, for me, that is a great legacy to have helped that happen, in a way that where the right thing happened. Because Matt and I, had a conversation that resulted in the right thing. And, you know, these, may never be captured moments like that. you never might not know what sort of behind, decisions or actions that are taken. But for me, the satisfaction of knowing that that worked out for him and it worked out So well, I think they're looking to perhaps do it every year, but even for the year of the coronation, it went well. that's satisfaction enough, really great legacy as far as I'm concerned. I think that's a, a lovely story to finish with. And I think there's so, so many lessons I can think within that, that story you've just shared. So, thank you so much for joining me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I do hope our listeners have as well, and I look forward for you joining us on the next, in our series of Ed Influence podcasts. Thank you, Nick.