S03 – E05 with John Murphy.

John Murphy has recently resigned from his position as Chief Executive of Oasis Community Learning, one of the UK’s largest multi-academy trusts with 52 primary and secondary Academies clustered in five regions across the country. 

 With over three decades of experience in school leadership, he has dedicated his career to raising aspirations for all young people and closing the attainment gap for the most disadvantaged. 

John is a committed Trustee of the Place2Be national mental health charity for young people and E-ACT Multi Academy Trust 

Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn.

Chapters

• 5:54 Dealing with grief, failing GCSEs
• 9:21 Influential leadership
• 13:00 Civic leadership
• 21:52 Great school leaders don't always make great trust CEOs
• 25:21 Giving air, taking space
• 29:43 An unequal playing field
• 33:30 Flourishing leaders and schools

Transcript

0:05

Welcome to the latest episode of Ed Influence. I'm Nick McKenzie from Brown Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by John Murphy, currently, CEOO Oasis, community Learning, and soon to be working, uh, both nationally and internationally to support CEOs and international school systems. Thank you, John, for joining me today. I, I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are as a leader. Okay, thanks Nick. And maybe, uh, this might sort of very quickly reveal who I'm and why I'm in the education system. So, uh, I know we all have a past, but this story will hopefully demonstrate why I'm passionate about the education system in the uk. So, one of my first memories as a child was being in a reception class in a Catholic primary school. And I went out for, uh, lunch one day and just before I went out for lunch, I remember it was a very tall Irish Catholic nun, and forgive my Irish accent, accent be said, Jan Murphy, what's this? And she pointed to what I now know as a capital H on the wall, and I just froze. I was in front of everybody. I froze and I just hadn't got a clue what that that letter was. And she said, well, if you don't know, you better know by the time you come back. And when I came back from lunch that afternoon, she never asked me. So that was my first sort of, I felt that was one of my first introductions to reading. And as I went through the school system in the UK by the age of seven, I could sense that the gap was widening that other children were more capable than what I was doing. And with my parents' agreement, the primary school, others then in sent me to a special reading center each afternoon, which the other children in the class, um, unkindly, whispered to me that I was getting on the Spastics bus. And what I remember is the center didn't really help me and I continued to struggle in class. And you'd be in that situation, Nick, where children would whisper to you all the wrong answers, you'd get in trouble. Or what I tried to do is just hide in the classroom. And, um, very early memories for me by the age I was 10, uh, and it was actually on Silver Jubilee Day. You're probably not old enough to remember this, but I do. Um, and my eldest sister Catherine, was tragically killed in a car accident. And for a number of years, you'll appreciate large Irish Catholic family. But my family were very much frozen in, in, in grief for, for a long time in Kent where I lived. Um, all my brothers and sisters had went on and passed the 11 plus, and I failed the 11 plus, and I felt very much trapped in a comprehensive school. I struggled in the bottom sets. And I think one of the things that stays with me Nick, more than anything else, is that following my sister's death, not a single teacher asked me about my sister's death. And nobody from my memory seemed to see me struggling in the system. I wasn't given additional support, and I just continued to fail. I went on, uh, in those days there weren't GCSEs, there were O levels. I went on to do my, uh, o levels and I failed every one of them. And it was finally one of my elder sisters who made a difference for me teaching me to read Turing me. And then my father said, well, the best thing to do is just reset the whole of year 11. So I went down a year with the children who haven't been particularly kind to in school, and I then was in a situation of finally got GCSEs, and then I sort of caught up. But for me, in my life right up until recently, I've always felt behind. I felt stupid. I felt not good enough. And what's driven me to be sort of successful in many ways is an unhealthy desire to prove myself. And so I've been driven by not a sense of satisfaction, but actually reversed in that, and that nothing's quite good enough. And so, uh, in 2018, um, whatever I was doing, whether it was being ACEO of Oasis or whether it was running a number of marathons or it was getting an ex black belt in karate, whatever it may be, nothing gave me a sense of satisfaction. And so a couple of colleagues I worked with very closely said, you never seem happy. Why don't you go and get counseling? And I was like, I don't need counseling. Of course, I don't need counseling. Um, and what I did is I, um, about in two 18, I went and had some counseling. And what it did, it helped me understand where I was actually coming from as a person that actually I'd had a stone in my shoe that I'd never felt quite right, never felt good enough. And that counseling was transformational because now I'm in a situation where I am content with myself, but I didn't understand myself. And one of the things the counselor said was that what you're doing all the time is giving air to everybody else, but you're suffocating yourself. And I thought that was a, that was a quite an important metaphor for me and my life at the time, because whatever I did wasn't good enough. And so if you, you'll probably appreciate from that story that the passion that I've got around education is making sure that Jordan are heard, they're not left behind, and that we create a better society. And that, and education is such an important golden ticket for children, but it's the love, care and attention that they get. And so, very much in Oasis, we really try to foster a sense of children feeling loved in the development of their character. Whilst it's important they have those skills, behavior, attitude, and knowledge. So it's been a, I feel like the last few years of, as you go through your life, isn't it, you sort of make sense of where you've come from, who you are and what you wanna achieve. I've done it retrospectively, if that's helpful. Thank you very much, Jeremy. It's quite, quite a story. I was wondering, would you be happy to share a bit more about your sister who intervened at that, that critical moment for you? Yeah, I, I think what had happened was because my parents were very much dealing with their own grief, um, and when I'd failed my GCSEs, it was a really clear marker that things weren't going right. Um, because, um, all my brothers and sisters had gone to university, you know, Durham, Cambridge, et cetera. They've been very, you know, very successful academically. And when I failed the GCSEs, there was a pinch point, do I go out into the world of work or do I stay in school? And I think just having my dad fun enough was a, my father was a head teacher. He was the Catholic president of England and Wales, so he was, you know, a big cheese in education world. But of course my mum was then looking after five children. So it's about time. What time have you got? And it was my sister I thinking, fostered in me a better sense of confidence, but it was that pinch point of failure where there was an intervention. And you see it now, don't you? You know, the GCs e results are coming up and there's a big thing about children failing or passing as opposed to that sense of education. Hopefully being able to light a passion in people, you know, education, finding out what you are good at, as opposed to this is the set curriculum, you'll fail or not fail. And even when you get to universities, now, the latest data that I've read shows that 37% of young people are a university and education is dedicated to that. But actually, what about, you know, that 63% of children want a university? How is education helping mold and develop them as people to be happy, to be flourishing? And we use that word, I think that word is being used more and more, particularly post pandemic mental health, et cetera. Actually, we want people to be confident and happy and independent living or sustaining a relationship might be, you know, obviously a really big target for someone. A moment ago you talked about your, your experience in counseling and about you giving oxygen to everybody else, but not yourself. I was curious, what, what have you discovered in that to give yourself more time? I think what I've done at times is inhabit the worst traits of leadership that if it's not done well enough, you know, I need to do things. And I think what it's enabled me to do, hopefully, is be a better leader in the fact that as ACEO and in in Oasis community, and we've got 5,000 staff, 32,700 young people, and you depend very much on a really interdependent, strong team of people. And what I've learned to do is learn to conduct and enable and support and lead rather than drive. And I think the whole issue around giving the leaders the, the, the freedom to lead gives me time back to be much more strategic indecision, looking about what it means to sustain leadership and develop succession planning and being very deliberate that you are there to coordinate, to guide, not do it. And I think that's provided a much better opportunity for me, ambassador, really within Oasis to develop our profile on the work that we do across 21 local authorities. So, you know, it's an enormous, it's an enormous, uh, privilege and responsibility. I wanted to just for a moment, in terms of people that have perhaps influenced you, John is thinking of a leader that you've followed personally that's led you, what, why did you follow them? There's always been this two people I I, I think in terms of leadership who've had a profound effect on me. Um, the first one is to John Rowling who, uh, passed away a couple of years ago. And he, whilst being a outstanding head teacher, he was a leader who I watched very closely. He supported me when I was a principal in Waste Academy, Colston. And by that time I was on my fifth headship. And of course when you get to Fifth Headship, you think I know how to do things, it's absolutely fantastic. And when he turned up, uh, at a Waste Academy, Colston, he did an analysis of our results. He taught me things that I've never seen before. And the more that I worked with him and became a Pix associate and worked with other schools, he had this amazing fanatical discipline where he would constantly ask questions. It wasn't about him having the answers, he was interested, he was learning all the time. And he was evoking in you a love of learning and what you're doing. And what he did is had an amazing capacity to ask you a question and then you ended up part of a working party or you'd be interested and then you start to facilitate and you just learn collaboratively that process. And he was, he was remarkable. And I think the other thing for me was very much my father was a head teacher. And at the time, and we always hear this, if he was the youngest head teacher in the uk but he was 28 when he became a head teacher. And he always taught me that he, he never gave me any answers when I was going through my first and second headship and I asked him questions, he said, it's alright, son. He said, you'll work it out for yourself. And you know, he just, he gave you the confidence to say that you'll do it yourself. But so very much my father as one. And secondly, John Rowing as the, as as the former, he was so clear about criticisms at the time of go and about the wider education and how education needs to include all. And he kept that. And that's been very much the rallying call of Pix ever since. What could we do? How can we see the best in every single child? And not to write children off at any stage, you know, always see the passion for them. I just, I thought it was amazing. Person. Sounds, sounds like Clear had an impact. Could you share a bit more about your father? I was interested there, it must been really difficult for him as a, as a head teacher in terms of how you described that. What else did you learn from him? He, uh, incredibly humble, uh, incredibly gracious. Um, I, one of my childhood memories is when he left, he, he was a, a head, uh, four or five times. And I, I was invited to one of his leaving due when he was working in a, in a primary school in Mitcham. And as he left the school, the parents stood in a long row and they all spread him with paddles as he went.'cause he was really, really loved. But he was a incredibly gracious, humble person. It was never about him. He was never about making assumptions. He just wanted to do his best. And, uh, I just think, I think the graciousness that he showed paid off, that people wanted to work for him. And it was, that was very much been the same in his personal life as much as in his professional life in the same way. Thank you. Thank you Joan. That I suppose that that image of the, the community saying goodbye to him there reminds me in terms of about sort of, I suppose the hub model of Oasis and the fact of being out in the community. What does leadership mean for you when you go beyond the school gates and into a community? I liken it to Maslow's hierarchy because on the school gate as a principal and I, I wanted to model this with staff every day that we would do a welcome committee, we'd welcome every child, we'd make sure they're ready for the school day. We'd make sure they have uniform, we'd check whether they've eaten in, in the morning. And that's Maslow's hierarchy that, you know, school should provide a safe place. You know, you should be meeting all their, their basic needs allows them to go through that sense of self-actualization when they're in school. But I'm very much aware that when I became a head teacher of an EBD school, sorry, school for boys with emotional behavior difficulties, I took over school, uh, in special measures and was asked at very short notice to move from a primary school to a secondary school. And I found out retrospectively the reason they wanted me to do that was 'cause I was semi-professional party instructor, and I was like the safest choice in the local authority at the time, I was the biggest local, you know, safe person when I went to the school, it was just an enormous education. I ran my first parents' evening there and I had one mom from Somalia, Somalian mom, non-English speaking turn up. I had no one else turn up and thinking, this is ridiculous. And then what I did is I, I visited each one of those children's homes and held the parents' meeting at the child's home. Or if, if the child was in local authority care, for example, in their care home. And it was the biggest education for me before I went to Oasis about actually what it means. You know, I'm white, I come from middle class loving background, I've had lots of, you know, opportunities and in some respects over time support. But many of the young men who were coming directly outta Felton had had total, you know, very, very challenging upbringing, huge poverty, gangs, vulnerability, sexual abuse, et cetera. And they needed a total package of love and support. And that's what we've tried to do through Oasis, through the hub model. You know, making sure that there are food banks availability, making sure that there is debt advice for parents, making sure, for example, we home visit, when there are really serious safeguarding, we don't stay away and hope things get better. We get into the M and get involved because it takes a family to, to, to raise a child. You hear that whole, you know, the African proverb, it takes a village to raise a child. Well, that's what we try to do through Oasis in the hub approach. Um, what do you found being the most difficult part of being a leader? John? Um, I think probably from the story that I've shared with you is having the emotional maturity to be willing to be emotionally vulnerable, to gain and seek the support that you need. A lot of leadership, um, journeys are very much based on the hero leader, the hero head, the person who can do everything. And that's what I think I grew up with in my mind's eye about, well actually this is what it's like. But actually when you read the books like, you know, Jim Collins, you know, good to Great, it's very much about the servant leader and how you support others. But I had a, when I, um, very, very much went through counseling was an incredibly painful process, I then learned instead of saying, I've got the answers to say, look, I'm really struggling with this and invite people into that journey of leadership. And for me that was a game changer. I mean, I, I released, I was working, I, I was asked to, uh, provide a video footage of my own life story. And when I sent that out to staff across Oasis, I had numerous people writing to me saying, thank you. By you being vulnerable, I now feel I can be vulnerable in my own setting. And what it creates is a new sense of a relationship, a connectedness. And in that connectedness, you develop the intimacy to be able to sort through problems and work through problems together. It's interesting To that, I wa I was just about to ask you, what did you learn, what did you notice, uh, different when you became more vulnerable? Perhaps you could talk a little bit about how that impacted in your relationship around the boardroom or with other, other senior leaders, because you've obviously covered the, the wider staff body there. Yeah, I, I think that my board, uh, in over time have been, and being very, very, being open very much in this disclosure, sometimes didn't feel as much involved in the journey of the organization because I'd turn up with all the answers and whatever challenge and support they raised with me, I felt, no, I'm fine. I'm ready. I can do this, it's fine. You know, here's the answer. And actually when I had that change of focus to say, look, we've got the clear vision, we've got the strategy, we know the outcomes we're gonna achieve. I'm not sure about this strategy. Can you, what, what are your thoughts on it? And when we started to really share the strategic objectives of the organization in some detail, suddenly you found board members who were, for example, really good in terms of neurodiversity or board members. For example, I've got an incredible board member called Ann Holt, for example, who's been the DAR director for Chichester. Suddenly they were opposing really, really good questions and it became much more of a partnership and a journey of, of governance and my executive leadership of the organization. So I think it, it felt more like a combined effort. And so with that, in thinking of the organizational strategy then, is it now a share? You feel it's a genuine shared strategy? Yes, and I, I think that particularly in the last few years, particularly post 19, uh, 20, 20 20, their partnership is, is huge. And I think it's led to, uh, more committees being developed, greater participation by those board members, greater ownership by them of what that strategy looks like. And, you know, when, for example, we developed, um, both the vision for the organization and when did we develop what was called an oasis entitlement? These are the areas that we want to cover. I think all board members feel very confident now to say, actually no, I'd like, I'd like you to, you know, hands, hands off, eyes on, but actually ask those challenging questions to unpick the strategy and improve it. And I've actually been much more willing to listen, which is a dreadful, dreadful thing to admit, but that's very much, you know, it's very true. So what, on, on that, what, what, what have you learned, what are your reflections as you're about to switch tack a little bit in your career, John? Um, what do, what do you think are the, the really important habits that makes a successful leader? I've really tried hard. I think one, when you are leading an organization, everybody's looking to you to role model what you expect from other people. And so over the last few years I've talked about four main principles. And everyone, you, and every time you say this, you always forget one of them. So hopefully I'll remember the one, the ones I was gonna share. I think the first thing for me is be absolutely honest with people and be candid and be direct and have that moral directiveness that if things aren't improving, you have to be the person who calls that out. And you have to with integrity, because children in our communities, you know, on average it's the 50% free school meal communities in some of our communities up to 73%, you know, these children's parents have never been in employment. And that sounds, you know, almost unbelievable for some people. But very high, very, very high levels of challenge. So be honest, be morally direct. I think the second thing, um, because of the mistakes I've made is don't make assumptions. When you make assumptions rather than knowing the facts. They're absolutely key. And as when you lead to assumptions, it can cause a lot of, uh, confusion, uh, distrust, check your facts, don't make assumptions. Um, I think the third thing is that you can't take things personally. You have to be absolutely clear that you are the leader. Everyone will have an opinion of what you are doing, but it's about how you build a team approach and how you involve people in that vision. And I think the, the fourth thing, and it goes back to that bit about emotional, um, sort of vulnerability. Just do your best and actually you can, I think, break down a lot of divides by just being really clear, saying, look, I've done my best on this. Help me out if we can improve it. And I think that gets people on the journey along with you, if that's helpful. Thanks John. And sticking with the moving on,'cause I suspect you're, you're probably in planning and reflective mode. If, if perhaps a way to ask this as you move on from ais. What, what's the growing edge for you personally as a leader these days? The what, sorry? The growing edge for you as a leader these days, your development areas. Oh, what a great question. I think particularly going through the counseling and particularly with some of the successes we've had in Oasis, you know, we took on 82% of our schools were in failing status when they joined us. And we're growing to 55 this September. We've got 80, currently 87% of them good or better. So it's 45 schools have gone to good and better. You look back at that and you look back at the ingredients of that and you say, well, what got you there? And I think what we've, I think the, the bit that's got us there was really understanding the reality, the vision, the strategy, and then trying to get the outcomes. But I think it's given me a confidence to that when I'm now mentoring CEOs in the uk, which I'm doing, what are the rapid learning that we've taken on board and I developed with both Sir Steve Lanier and with Sir David Carter, the nine steps of school improvement and being very systematic about school improvement. And I think it's given me a confidence that I can go and hopefully help other organizations in the same way, but by also honestly sharing the mistakes you make and making sure that they are not jumping into activity but they're stepping back and they're looking at what the reality of their organization is. But one of the things I've really learned, Nick, is that you can be a great school leader. That doesn't mean that you are a great CEO and the role of being ACEO, you know, school become CEOs 'cause they're successful at running schools. But when you become, and the, you know, the ecosystem of school life has changed massively in the last 10, 15 years, when you become ACEO you're becoming a leader of an organization. So what are the people and processes look like? What does the culture look like? What are you doing and how are you communicating? What sort of CEO do you want to be? How active are you gonna be? What does your leadership structure and style look like? How is it anchored on a great scheme of delegation where people understand their accountabilities and roles and responsibilities? And I think it, its demands a different skillset. Uh, and I'm really interested in working with CS cst. I'm really interested in working with a whole range of CEOs, which I'm going to be doing, but also I'm gonna be stepping abroad, uh, working in, uh, Abu Dhabi because they have a very high rate of failure in their state school system. Um, and uh, I'm working with the government there in terms of advising their education minister there as well. So the whole portfolio, and I've been recently asked to go up to be, um, the chair of, uh, the education investment area in Blackpool, which I'm interested in looking at. 'cause that's a huge challenge, particularly around, you know, disadvantaged outcomes and closing the gap. So whole portfolio work. But, uh, I'll be learning by the mistakes I've made. Nick, if that's a very honest answer, It, it sounds like you're gonna be as busier dealing with sort of complex much complexity as you, you currently are at Oasis. And on that, I was gonna ask, in terms of, I, I can imagine it would be very easy to not have any time to think in the sort of roles that you've had. So I was curious as how, how do you make time to think in in the roles and the pressures that you have, John? Um, it depends on how you organize your week and it's one of the first things I talk to CEOs about. What's the CEO o do you want to be? And everybody's obviously out there, I'll, I'll use the analogy again, giving air to all of their head teachers and being there to supporting, but you can't inspect your own work. So I think giving yourself as ACEO giving yourself space between meetings, I know it's an obvious point, but people don't do it. Giving yourself strategy time each week where you step back and look at the work, making sure there's a really clear strategic plan underpinning everything you're doing and you are keeping, I mean, the way I have run line management in the past is line management is there to focus on both the personal professional development of the colleague, but the personal development is giving them time for them to raise issues with you. But the professional development is keeping them to account for the plans that they're supposed to be putting in place and the strands across the strategic plan. So I think it's just making sure time is massive and that whole, that whole adage of course when a really difficult decision comes in, because sometimes, particularly as ACEO, the decisions you make in the moments of time can come back in, a tribunal can come back in a different way or a parental complaint, what it may be. So your decision making has to be spot on and making timer around those decisions is key. And so when you are, when you've carved out that time to think, what sort of questions would you, you talked about that strategic role that you like, what sort of questions would you be asking yourself when you're, you, when you'd found those moments to think? Well, I think it goes back, I mean, I'd say for example, I'm, I'm flying out tomorrow to, um, you know, AB Abu Dhabi and in that they've asked me to really focus on teacher development. What's the reality there? What do people need? And I think sometimes you can jump in on the last idea, but actually instead say to yourself actually, what do those teachers need? What's the reality for them? If I'm working with the CEO in the uk, what's their real reality? And I think it's having that very honest dialogue right at the beginning is how does it feel for you? How is it working with your chair? What's the culture like in your schools? So as part of the program in CST, we are making sure as mentors that we visit the CEO schools. And so you can have this great vision, but unless it's really coming through within the school and having fidelity to that vision, it's, it's not worth being part of one of those multi-county trusts. We've gotta really think about what are we trying to achieve. There's loads of quotes that do the rounds. Um, the leadership one I bumped into again not that long ago was, um, a leader is a dealer in hope. Does that resonate with you? Mm, a hundred percent. Yeah. I i, it, i I think if you can't work forward as a, without a sense of hope, your work becomes pointless. I I, I do think if you wanna, if you wanna quote back, I think it first starts off to they himself be true. So in others, where are you now, then where do you want to get to? And understanding that roadmap of, of development for an organization. But I think the stakeholders, how people feel about being part of an organization is so important. You know, you can see internationally that's why Apple is so successful because they're about how people feel about the products, et cetera. I think the, I think getting that sense of hope is absolutely key. And sometimes understanding, I think what's the point of education and for me personally, the point of education is, uh, we are society builders. You know, an educationist for me is a society builder, an educationist for me is building, or the purpose of education is building a better society where people are critical thinkers, where people are have integrity, where people are thinking about the contribution they're making to their communities and not what they can get from them, but what they contribute to them. We haven't got too much longer left, but, so I do have a, a few more areas would be great to, to explore. But thinking particular is, again, you are, you're moving on to these new, new roles. Just gonna ask you, for you, what's the mission that connects your leadership roles through your career? The sense of lack of justice in the system? I feel deeply and passionately, um, about the disadvantage gap. I'm not a great believer, uh, well, I'll say it more firmly. I don't like, I think there is a, an unequal playing field in the education system between, in independent education. So 7% of students still go to independent schools and make up 42% of the influe, you know, of the influential sector. And I think there is a system divide. I would love there to be in a situation in the UK where there was comprehensive education and parents, all parents, whoever they are, would then really valued their school, their school leaders, their schools. And I think we would see a transformation in the British education system because of that. I feel deeply that when we're, we don't get a, we don't get a integrated community in society because there isn't that integration at school. And those school environments should be, um, an opportunity to buying together all the different classes. There should be an opportunity for us to understand children with profound special needs and support each other. And I think we'd end up with a better society with a less divided education system. And I see education as a right, but I, I think the way in which private education or religious education or, um, you know, segregated education, I just think it all leads to the divides. And I'm passionate about, you know, closing the gap but actually raising the, you know, attainment for all children. I'm curious, do you, do you think, I mean everyone talks a good game about the importance of education, but do you think as a country we we value and see it's potential, it's transformational potential enough? I think it's, I think it depends on how you talk about education. Education is about making sure that children have the chance and opportunity to flourish. And I'm not just talking about academically, I'm talking in terms of their attitudes, their behaviors, the skills they're able to apply, thinking about the level of confidence they may have in terms of approaching a situation, the social skills they develop. And what you find in schools is there's a tremendous focus as you can appreciate on fractions. Uh, and you know, when everyone would know how to teach fractions in a school. But when you are then asking teachers through the teacher training to develop on, to develop very specific social skills, they're not taught as clearly, you know, about how to, how to get a child in a place where they are developing social skills in a really sort of logical way. And one, both of those are about a young person flourishing. So I I we've used the word an oasis, they're now using, I can see in CST as well, we want children to be a hu you know, it's about human development education. It's not just, it's not just about the thought best that's been thought and said, it's not about getting children just ready for the economy. And it's not just about social action. I think it's about human development and understanding education in those terms. And at the moment, of course, it's, it's measured down to the, the smallest denomination, the smallest denomination of that might be GCSEs destination data I think is massively important, but underplayed. Thank you. So at Times Up, as I said a moment ago, I wanted to to ask you, what would you say brings you say 80% of your joy as a leader, John? Um, two things I would say, oh, I can't, it's 80%, so that doesn't work out, does it? Sorry, Go with two. I'll give Two examples. Two examples. Um, seeing a leader flourish, um, I've worked with some remarkable principles in, in Oasis, um, and seeing them flourish and seeing schools flourish is hugely, uh, hugely rewarding. And it's a, it brings utter joy. And as part of that, I think seeing some children, for example, who wouldn't survive in the schools and system elsewhere, survive in Oasis and Flourish has been, and seeing many of those children through their families over time has been a real joy. Thank you. And the, the final question for me, um, thinking forward, and I know you're just about to embark on an exciting new, new chapter, the thinking of the legacy that you'd like to leave behind from your leadership, what would that be? Um, I think I, I, I did my best and I enabled others and I served the organization to the best of my capacity. But I think that great leaders get, leave organizations in a great place and I think Oasis has got a great, you know, there's a great, there's a very clear strategic plan. It's got a great vision. Um, and I hope our leaders have feel really enabled to take the organization forward. So yeah, I've done my best and I've served the organization well. Thank, thanks John. And thank you for joining me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I do hope our listeners have it as well. And I look forward to you joining us on the next, in our series of Ed Influence podcast. Fantastic.