S03 – E07 with Dawn Haywood.

Dawn Haywood is Chief Executive Officer of Windsor Academy Trust and sits on the DfE Priority Education Investment Area Local Partnership Boards for both Sandwell and Walsall. She is also a member of the Confederation of School Trusts (CST) Inquiry focused on how School Trusts drive school improvement. 

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Chapters

• 3:26 Sports reveal your character
• 7:06 A sense of belonging
• 11:53 Leaders to learn from
• 16:54 Collaborating with others
• 24:49 Holding the pause, creating the gaps
• 30:00 Strategies for staff
• 37:12 The power of the collective
• 42:46 A sustainable legacy

Transcript

0:03

Welcome to the latest episode of Ed Influence. I'm Nick Mackenzie from Browne Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Dawn Hayward, CEO of Windsor Academy Trust. Thank you, Dawn, for joining me today. I wanted to start our discussion by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are as a leader. Well, thanks for having me, Nick. And it's a privilege to be part of this. So I think that, for me, fundamentally, me as a leader has been shaped by who I was as a child and as a child. I think I'm probably best describe myself as a young person who grew up with very little self-worth, a child who grew up believing that someone like me could never really, warrant having dreams and hopes and high aspirations. A child who I suppose now would be called disadvantaged, and all sorts of o you know, other things happening there. And I remember that feeling up until the age of 11, of just believing that I just wasn't good enough and that other children were better than me. And I think that, when I went to secondary school, I was in the bottom sets for everything. And then something magical happened to me when I was at secondary school, and I had a teacher who believed in me, and it happened to be my PE teacher. I discovered I could be good at something. And for me, that was sport. And I had a realisation at the age of 11 that if I could be good at sport, and I had someone who believed in me, well, why would they believe in me? Maybe I'm somebody worth believing in. And so, I channeled myself to be the best that I could at sport, but I also made the decision that if I can be good at sport, I can actually be good at learning, can't I? And I remember as the, the 11-year-old, me having this kind of like self-talk, I suppose. And then, so I made the decision that I was going to work really hard in my subjects. And within six months, I was in the top sets for everything. And that simply came from the belief that actually someone like me, when I'd experienced success, could apply that success to everything else. And for me, success led to a sense that I do have self-worth. I am someone who is capable and deserves to have high hopes, dreams and aspirations. And I remember at the age of 11 deciding I wanted to be a PE teacher because I wanted to make a difference for other children as my PE teacher has made for me. And that fundamentally has shaped not just who I am as a leader or an educator, but who I am as a person. Thank you. That's quite-, I noticed, sort of thinking about before today that sport has shaped, quite a lot of your leadership role and, and actually as well some of the roles that you've done with young people in terms of promoting their own leadership. Could you talk to me a bit more about how that shows up in your leadership today then? Yeah, sure. I think that, you know, for, for me, sport is part of my identity. It has shaped my identity. And I think what, you know, I'm, I'm a firm believer that we should, it it- every single child has something that they are good at. And our job as educators is to find that thing, whether it's sports, art, music, drama, whatever it might be, every child has something. And for me, that just happened to be sports. And I think that, you know, my journey with sport as both a sports person and, and as a coach, is that sport absolutely revealed my character. It's something that, yes, it grew my character, but absolutely that the sporting arena reveals your character. And I think that it is today as a leader, yes, I draw upon the experiences I've had within education, but I probably fundamentally more draw my experiences within sport, to help me to know what to do as a leader, a leader today. It's really interesting that sort of revealing, revealing your character in terms of sport. There's no that sense of no place to hide. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, on the, in, in the field of sport, you just have to face so much. And I think that, it makes you fundamentally, you just have to be brave. It reveals who you are. You, some people will say, I'm a different person when I'm on the sporting field, and where does that come from? How can I be this person in my life, in my general day-to-day life, but actually this different character on the, on the sporting field? And I think it just- it makes you look at yourself and it makes you dig deep in sports. It is not, yes, of course everybody wants to win, but it makes you really fundamentally think about what does it take to be successful? What do I need to be, what does the team need to be, and what do I need to be within the team to enable me to be successful, but the team to be successful as well, especially when the sport is a team sport, I suppose. And to be successful in sport, even whether it's an individual sport, it relies on so many different people. And I think that that's what, that's fundamentally shaped me as a leader in education. Because what I do here at Windsor Academy Trust is absolutely not about me. It is about the team and what collectively we can do to unlock the academic and personal potential of the young people we serve. And that notion of collective efficacy, we are stronger because we are together. And I always use a an OECD quote that I absolutely love. And it's in the learning 2030 goals. And it's a quote that goes, the light shines brightest when we shine together. And I talk to our staff about, our job is to ensure our own light shines. Our job is to ensure the light in every single young person shines. And when we all shine, the light shines brightest. When we shine together, magical things happen because we do them together. And I think so much of that comes from sport. And could you share an example, perhaps of the last term, of the last year, where you really feel that is sort of what you've achieved in your organisation's epitomised by that we're all shining together? Yeah. I think that, you know, I think that one thing that I am deeply proud of is we've just, you know, we've just had our staff survey and student survey results back, we do the, the Edurio survey for our staff and students and indeed parents. And I think that I feel incredibly proud of the extent to which our children feel, and our staff feel like they belong to the family. And that matters deeply. To me, that sense of belonging is a basic human feeling that drives so much. And I think that people want to belong to something that's successful. People will want to leave something that isn't successful. So that sense of success drives belonging. And so for me, there is, there is so much that is just, very intentional within the culture of the Windsor Academy Trust family that is fundamentally around building a sense of belonging, fundamentally around ensuring that success comes because it's a collaborative endeavour as opposed to an individual endeavour and individual success, lead to team success. And team success leads to individual success. And I think that, you know, it's for me, you know, that, children are successful when, when educators are successful, educators are successful, when children are successful, communities are strong. When schools are strong, we make a difference to the world and the planet and sustainability when we all act together. And I think that, you know, there's research. I was reading actually in Doug Lamov's, book Reconnect around, the fact that, you know, USA is the most individualist individual country in the world. We are the second most individual country in the world, as opposed to collective this notion of collectivism. And I think there's a real danger there. And I think there's something about the power of the collective, the power of belonging, the power of knowing that you are part of something that's bigger than you, that leads to the success of all. Yeah, that's a theme I think that's come up with a few of the other guests I've had on this, on podcast, Dawn. Andparticularly, I suppose, listening to you, one previous guest coming to mind that's a lady called Catherine Baker, who wrote, wrote a book around Staying the Distance, I think it's called, where it was looking at learning the lessons that organisations can learn from sport. Not about perhaps what we're eventually used to of that pinnacle of, you know, reaching the, the, the right moment at the Olympics or the World Cup, but more about that sustainable performance. And I actually, I think belonging came up in her book, in some of her findings. For you, what do you think the lessons can be about sustaining that, that high performance from sport? Hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. So yeah, I think that fundamentally to be successful over a long period of time is a very different mindset to quick wins. And I think that any coach in sport that's worth their salt will not just think about the short term, but they will think about the long term, which is really interesting in education, in the way in which we plan within education and, and how things, how things run. And I think that that long-term view, that actually success may come at a point that goes beyond you, is really, an interesting thought. It's that notion that our responsibility is to not just think about what we can do today or tomorrow, but what we're trying to create for the, for the next three years, five years, 10 years, 30 years, and the legacy that we leave, you know, and working for as I did, I was seconded to London 2012 in the buildup to the, to the Olympic and Paralympic games. And the role that I had was to establish the youth board at London 2012. And I absolutely loved it. And the reason why that was there is because that role was there, is because what we wanted to do through the games at London 2012 was to inspire a generation of young people through the power of sports to leave a legacy. And how often in education do we think about the legacy that we leave? We focus so much on shortterm, short-termism that actually, I think what sport does is that there is a, yes, there is the win and the next win, but also there's a fundamental belief of the long-term success of the team. And I think that that's something, there are many lessons. I think as leaders, we can learn from sports, and certainly leaders within education. Thank you, Dawn. And the, perhaps in terms of, I'm conscious, we've sort of talked a lot about sports, so perhaps, switching tack slightly in terms of, although there, there may well be a link. I was curious in terms of, you clearly were influenced by your PE teacher as a, as a young teenager, early adult. Are there other leaders that you sort of followed, either that you've worked very closely with, or perhaps you've seen from a distance, and why did you follow them? If there are? Yeah, so there's two. I mean, there's lots that come to mind. but I think there's probably two or three that have fundamentally made a really big difference to who I am as a leader, and who I kind of humbly, watch have tried really hard to learn from. I'm one of those people who I think was a real pain, as I was growing as a young leader, because I wanted to know why they were so successful, why they were doing things that they were doing. And they were gracious enough to bring me along to things and to indulge me in my constant questioning, I suppose. Look, I think fundamentally for me, there is a fire that burns inside of me that wants to ensure that every child is successful. And so for me, I want to ensure that I learn everything I can, and I'm always endeavor to be a learner because I think it's important to understand what it's like to be a learner in order to be a successful leader. So for me, I think it would be Baroness Sue Campbell, Dame Sue Campbell, I never know which bit comes first, the Baroness or the Dame, but she's both who I had the privilege of working alongside for 10 years, throughout the specialist sports college movement, the school sport partnership movement, and indeed the buildup to London 2012, the Olympic and Paralympic Games. And it was an utter privilege. And I think with the, you know, what I know about Sue is she's a human first and a leader second. Sue is one of the most humble people you would ever know. She came and spoke at our trust conference on the 8th of December, and she stood on the set stage, you know, in her seventies, towards the end of her career, and said, I've learned as much from others, as I hope others have learned from me. And what an amazing thing to say for somebody who has accomplished so much. The fact that she knows that she's learned as much from others as others have learned from her. Sue is just an unbelievable human being. She took us as chair of UK Sports, from, I think it was 16th on the medal table in Atlanta, all the way through to third on the medal table in London, 2012. And then second on the medal table, at Rio 2016, someone who is absolutely driven by excellence, but someone who is absolutely clear about the power of people to drive change. And someone who constantly questions, why are we doing what we are doing? And seeks to inspire purpose in everybody, because it isn't just about winning games. It's not just about now where she's, she's in charge of, you know, the director of women's football for the FA what she's done with the lionesses is not Why are you playing football? What is your purpose? Why are you doing this? So it's not just about winning the Euros or getting to the final of the World Cup. She's taken them further than that and has asked all of the Lionesses to really dig deep to their why. And for them it's clear, you've seen that as they came off the back of the Euros and as they came back off the back of the World Cup. And that is to leave a legacy, to inspire young boys and girls through the power of football. And that is fundamentally, I suppose what I've learned from Sue to strive for excellence, to always ensure that there's a really clear purpose and people understand why they are so important to that greater mission, that greater purpose, something that's bigger than them and will always be bigger than them, but someone who is incredibly humble. And I think that's just inspiring, another would be, Leora Cruddas. I think she's just unbelievable. She's doing an amazing job as the CEO of the, Confederation of School trusts. Again, very many similar qualities. Someone who is relentless in their desire to make a difference. Someone who always does the right thing for the right reasons, even when that's tough sometimes. And it means saying no and standing up to people sometimes, but is driven by doing the right thing for the right reasons. And another one will be Sir David Carter. Again, very many similar characteristics to Sue and, and to Leora, just a wonderful human being, as well as somebody who's left a deep and long-lasting legacy. So taking that bigger impact and that purpose, I'm really conscious through what you said about the work you did as part of the, London 2012, but some of the other work that I know you've been doing locally with your trust about having impact outside the school gates and working with others and, and collaborating with others. And I imagine there's been some really great moments there and some really tough moments.'cause it's sort of to work in, I don't know, with the, the NHS trusts working with government no doubt. And others around London 2012. What reflections of all those experience have you got of what works well where you, you're bringing together other organisations? You talked about, perhaps I heard, in sort of a more network world in terms of having to work together perhaps more closely to solve some of the challenges that, you know, we're facing in the times that we live. What have you learned from bringing together different organisations and people that may be from different sectors with different purposes and different motivations? Yeah. Almost holy grail on this, isn't it? Yeah, I think, you know, fundamentally, education and schools don't exist in isolation to everything else. We live in an interdependent world. Schools are, are interdependent on the other services, that are out there. Whether that's health services, whether that's, you know, the whole range of services that are there and the other public sectors. And I think that I am deeply passionate about the civic work that we do as a family of schools. I'm also deeply passionate about the work we do around sustainability. And, and I'm really proud that we won the Environmental Trust of the Year award. That matters deeply to me. And I think that for that very simple reason that we are interconnected. We are interdependent that children don't just exist in schools, they exist in their communities. It matters to children that we leave the world they're going to inherit as adults. When I spend time in schools and listen to children, I have focus groups with children every, every single week. And I ask them three questions, what do you want me to hear? What do you want to ask me? And what advice would you give me? Every single time they talk about sustainability and the world they're going to be inheriting as they, as they grow up. And I think that for me, that, we can't just put our head in the sand and just focus on our piece of the pie, which is education. If we are truly going to ask ourself the bigger question, which is what does it take to enable young people to thrive, not just today, but in the future? We have to think civically and we have to think systemically. We have to think about our role in the communities, the other public sectors and civic partners and anchor institutions we need to work with. But we also need to think about the, the impact we are having on the world that children, will inherit. I also think that there is a another dimension to that, and that is the systemic role we play. And that is, I think, you know, no longer can head teachers or trust chief executives pull up the drawbridge and just focus on their own school or their own trust. We have a moral duty to ensure that all children thrive, whether they're in our schools, whether they're in other schools, whether they're in other trusts, or wherever they may be, that actually, if we really want children to make a difference, it shouldn't matter where they are or where they go to school. That we need to ensure we're connected with our community, that we do things that lead to environmental sustainability, but we help schools and trusts that happen to be elsewhere to be successful as well.'cause there we go, when one's successful, we're all successful. And when one struggles as Sir David Carter would say, the wagon should come around and we should help each other. So fascinating. I particularly liked in terms of the focus groups with the, the children that you were, you were saying. Now I might circle back to that to use the wagon analogy in a moment, but, could you give an example or two perhaps, of some of the things that you've been doing then and sort of with other, partners in the communities you serve to, to deliver on what you think that we need to be doing? Yeah, so I think that the, you know, the first thing I would say is that, in our organisational strategy, we have five big moves. The first is around high performing schools. The second is around making sure we have fantastic staff to make a difference for children. But the other three are exactly this that you're talking about Nick. The third is around our civic work. The fourth is around sustainability, and the fifth is around our system contribution. And so we are deeply intentional rather than accidental about this. So if we take the civic work, our big move three, we work very closely with a number of NHS trusts. Our schools are, we have 15 schools across five different local authorities, predominantly in the priority education investment areas and education investment areas. Some of those most deprived disadvantaged communities across the West Midlands. And we know that if we really want our children to be successful, we have to work carefully and closely with other civic actors like the NHS. And there's some fantastic things we're doing with the, with five different NHS trusts around, firstly, I meet with the CEO of, particularly one NHS trust, but across all of them. And we share what it's like to be a leader of the public sector. And we learn things from each other. We ask each other questions around how we're doing things in these different sectors. Secondly, we are fundamentally asking ourselves together across school trust and NHS trusts, what does it take to prevent young people falling into poor physical and mental health, patterns of behaviour and how can we prevent, those things happening for young people? What are the actions that we can take particularly, and we are undertaken specific projects around vaping, sexual health, undertaking some projects around asthma and how asthma is managed within children and preventing asthma. So there's many things we do particularly also around mental health. So things like active in mind using the power of sport, to ensure that young people have a better mental, mental health and, and positive outlook and hope, which is a word that I think is deeply important with education. The third area we're doing with NHS is around community services on education and school science. And the fourth is around how we help develop the NHS workforce of the future. How we inspire our young people to think about and believe that they can go into one of the 300 roles in the NHS and make a difference for other people. So that's just one civic partner. We work with universities, we work with police, we work with other schools. We work with, sporting institutions, arts and cultural institutions, many organisations. And that's simply firstly understanding the communities we serve, understanding what the needs of our communities are, and really ensuring that we listen carefully and take action to ensure that we are making a difference, not just for our children, but equally a difference for the communities that we serve too. Either from those programs and some of the activities you've been doing or your discussions in terms of focus groups with children. I'm curious, what have you learned and reflected of that you've seen difference by doing those activities? I imagine there's many things, but I don't know whether there's something that would come to mind in terms of a reflection you take away from learning that you've seen in terms of all the impact. Yeah, and I think it's-, it's fascinating to, look at it that way. I think it's a tough world that children are growing up in at the moment. And I think that, you know, when you put it all together and the things that learn from other civic organisations, the things you learn from children, it is fundamentally this, it is the power of listening, but it's the power of listening without an agenda. As leaders, so often we like to project. And I think that in the moments of quiet, the moments of genuinely listen and trying to listen, you become much wiser because I'm a firm believer that as adults we have something to learn from children. I also believe that when we listen to the other public sectors, we have something to learn from them. And it's only through genuinely understanding that we can, I'm listening and being humble enough to know, hmm, maybe we haven't got it quite right. Maybe we need to think differently that you can start to ask some of those big questions around. So what is it like to be a child growing up today? What is it that children genuinely need to thrive and flourish today and into the future? How can we work with other public sector institutions, anchor institutions to make a difference for our children and the communities that we serve? So it's only genuinely through listening and understanding the perspective of others that we can make a real difference. My first guest actually on this series, professor Fiona Forbes, she said something fascinating, which really resonated with me. I'm curious how it lands with you. She said, look for the gaps. Sometimes there's more in the gaps than there is in the words used. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes it's, you know, there are, when you are listening to people, there are pauses that are really uncomfortable, and you have to learn to hold the pause.'cause if you hold the pause, that's when the magical things come. We're sometimes uncomfortable without getting an instant response. And actually by creating the gaps, which we don't like doing in education, we like to think we've got all the solutions. It's only when we create the gaps that we can fundamentally ask the big questions, and then together we can find the solutions. And so taking that, that theme of the big questions, one thing I'm always really interested in is as you said, I mean, there are so many things to be done, and it sounds like, you know, there's so many priorities and things that you need to be doing as CEO. How do you, as an individual make time to think and sort of slow down and really reflect? And when you're doing that, Dawn, I'm curious about what are the sorts of things that you use that time to reflect on and think? Yeah, so yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, there's a danger, as leaders that we can be in this kind of notion that Stephen Covey talks about a whitewater constantly having things hitting us, and then constantly reacting. And so I think that, you know, one of the, one of the important things that I've certainly learned as a leader is that we need to create time to think and understand ourselves well enough to know when we think at our best and our most creative. So for me, there's, there's a couple of ways I do that. One is I run, so that's where I create my thinking time. It is my best thinking time. And I know I get a bit grumpy if I don't have my, my regular runs.'cause I think it's both good for me, but it enables me to think, to process things and, think a little bit differently. And the other, the other is by creating time to listen. So I've, said about the focus groups I do with, with children. In fact, I've just come from doing that this morning. I'll also ensure that I undertake focus groups with parents and focus groups with staff. And those are some of my best, gaps I can create for myself to think, because by listening you get other people's perspectives. So those are two intentional strategies that I use. Yeah, I was really taken by the focus groups of the children. And I was gonna ask you, what strategies do you use with staff? I'm not surprised to hear that you use, use something similar.'cause I imagine in terms of it's one of those, those challenges with the, you know, 15 different schools. I'm not sure how many, exactly how many staff you've got, but having that connection and understanding what their experiences and what they're seeing and feeling, I imagine is a real challenge, but also a great deal of insight for you as the leader of Windsor Academy Trust. Yeah, Absolutely. I think it's just fundamental to being a leader. So I intentionally, ensure I spend a day a week in schools. And when I'm in schools, I will always ensure I'm on school gates. I will always ensure, 'cause I get a chance to meet parents, then I get a chance to have some informal conversation with the children as they come into school. And equally staff, I'll always make sure that I undertake a focus group with the senior leadership team, I have time with the head teacher and focus groups, with children, staff, and parents. And they are always my favorite days because for me it is where I stay grounded. And I think there's a danger, that as trust CEOs, we can become a little detached from the reality of what it's like to be a child, what it's like to be a member of staff, and indeed the perceptions of parents. We can do, we can do surveys and all of those sorts of things. But I think that people really appreciate you taking your time to listen to them. And I have to say I love it. I deeply appreciate the time that others give to me to share their thoughts, their insights. And they like it too. It builds connections because they know that I genuinely care because I give my time and I genuinely seek to understand. I don't always get everything right. And I can't. And I wish I could listen a whole lot more. But I hope that our children, our staff and our parents know that I care enough to listen to them and try to really, you know, absolutely take on board what they say. And so I was wondering that, I'm sure there's some great days and you said those are some of your best days, but there's also some other days as being CEO the buck stops with you. So when things get tough, how do you go about finding energy or people that give you energy? Yeah. What are your strategies? Oh, brilliant. Yeah, I mean, a few. And the reality is, you know, there are, there are many times as a leader, there's a great Celine Dion song, and it says it is the moments that you think you can't, you discover that you can, it's called the Power of the Dream. And, so I will deliberately put that on in the car on the way home, and I'll sing terribly. But it's that line that always just hits me. There are many moments as a leader that we think we can't, but we dig deep enough to discover that we can. And I think, you know, there are many times that I just, there are hard, there are things happen, you know, we care. We're humans. Things happen that, that hurt us, that upset us. And sometimes I know there's kind of the perception that, you know, we are the CEO that we are, you know, almost a machine. Well, we are not, we are humans. We care. And I think that, you know, those, it is those moments. You know, there's, there's another little quote that I use that's from- the brilliant Christmas movie, this film. And it is, there's a, a quote in there that says, we can do anything because we've already faced everything. And I think that's, you know, that's what we've deal with as leaders and educators, we've already faced everything. So we can do anything. We just might not know the answer to it yet, but we will find a way of working out the, the answer to it. So I think the, the things that, you know, that I suppose give me sleepless nights when I know that some of our disadvantage and most vulnerable children are struggling when something happened, when I know that perhaps something has happened with a member of staff. It's the human things. It's not, it's the human things that always worry me, always worry me and bother the me the most. But I also am an eternal optimist. And I always believe that we are deeply empowered within this education system, and that anything is possible, and that we have such a moment in time where we really can do anything. As long as we do things, you know, to the, we just kind of question, we pull people around us, we ask the big questions, and we seek to just, just never, ever, ever settle until all of the children, especially our most vulnerable, are, you know, are the best that they can be. And it's like, we'll, never, you know, Nick, you know, maybe that's a bit of a, you know, utopia. We'll never get there, you know. But if we, you know, there's again, another little quote that if you shoot for the moon, you'll land amongst the stars. And I know that that doesn't work because the stars are further away than the moon. But the, you know, the sentiment is there, you know, if we strive for perfection, we'll probably stumble across excellence. Yes. And I think sometimes just getting on and doing things, 'cause the, the other of the perfection's, the enemy of the good as well, it's just sometimes it's better to do something than nothing sometimes, isn't it? Yeah. Than sort of navel gaze. Yeah. And absolutely. And I I'll say to our team here, look, you know, do less but do it well. And I'm a deep believer and you can't do a million things really well. Let's be clear about what our priorities are, and let's do them really, really well. Let's knock this out the park and let's not worry if sometimes if we get it wrong, because we'll learn from it and we'll get it better next time. And you've got to have a culture, I think, in your organisation where, you know, again, I'll say to staff, I'd rather you seek forgiveness than ask for permission sometimes. We just need to make things happen. And just get things done. And it's through doing that, that we will learn, we'll learn as we're, as we're going. You know, James Nottingham always talks about the learning pit, and you've got to be uncomfortable. You've got to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. You've got to be comfortable in not knowing the answers to things, but having the resilience to know you'll find a way and sometimes acting before you've got all the information. Hmm. Unfortunately we're coming towards the time. There's lots of questions that sort of spring into my mind. I think one I was really interested in making sure I made time to ask you was, I'm conscious in terms of, you've been in your role, I think for about two years, and it's your, I think you were in senior leadership before and sort of as the deputy CEO and then you've moved in into the CEO, I think it's far enough away now that you can sort of share some reflections on that transition. I'm really interested as to what you learned through that time. Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, it doesn't feel like two years. It feels like a million years. I think that, so firstly, people need to feel like they belong and they need a sense of hope. I think those two things are absolutely fundamental for a leader to instill and to inspire a sense of belonging and a sense of hope, a belief that we can do anything if we do it together. And that's where the hope and belonging come together for me. I think it's, being comfortable with the fact that you won't always get everything right as a leader, but also being humble enough to know that, you're doing the best that you can do. And sometimes that's just okay to allow yourself just to be who you are. I think, you know, I've definitely, you kind of learned the power of the as a CEO, the power of the network, the system, the collective that we are not CEOs on our own. And there are lots that, have helped me along the way. And it's okay to reach out to people sometimes, but equally knowing that you'll be there for others when they need, need you to. And I think, you know, the biggest thing I've learned is just to be humble. So, very nearly last question, and you gave me the inspiration for your last question at my last question earlier in this discussion. But I just wanted to get a sense in terms of, in terms of, I'm conscious as there's only so much you can say'cause this could be broadcast publicly, but, just thinking what, what's on your mind this week? What are the sorts of things that you are, you are grappling with as a leader this week, to the extent that you can share it publicly? Dawn. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Great. So, oh boy, where are we? We're at Thursday? So the sorts of things that have been particularly on my mind this week are, we have, just got the results from our Student Voice survey. And I think that I'm really proud of the results from that survey, but I'm never satisfied. And I think I will always look at the things that I can't live with in the results from those student survey. I think the thing that I think is, that is just on my mind both this week and more broadly, but the survey is, is brought it particularly to, to sharp focus for me this week is ensuring that, excuse me, ensuring that young people have a sense of hope for the future that is sharply on my mind. And how do we do that? How do we create that for young people? So that's a, that's I suppose one of the bigger ones. And we, we see that manifested in so many different ways, whether it's your children who choose not to attend school, some of the behaviours they exhibit, and on all of those sorts of things. So that's I suppose, a big question. And then you get onto some of the more practical day-to-day things. So we have, the priviledge of, leading for Walsall and Sandwell local educational authorities. A piece of work, around metacognition and self-regulation through the priority education investment areas. So I suppose we had the launch last Friday with Doug Lamov came and did the launch, which is a priviledge to be working alongside him. So I suppose there are those things around-. So not only is it 15 schools within our families, but, the work we are now doing across 40 schools into two local educational authorities and just making sure that they're playing a system role. But I don't take my eye off the ball here in Windsor Academy Trust. So that's, that's another, I suppose thing that's, that's on my mind at the moment. There are many Nick, there are lots of them, from the big to the perhaps more mundane, you know, so other things like, you know, perhaps there is, I really wanna make sure that this particular person feels like they really belong and I get the best out of them. What strategies can I use to make sure I do? So there's some of those sorts of things as well Really interesting that; an intentional approach to the things of where you choose your time has come across to me really strongly in this, this discussion. But I'm afraid that, I think our time is up. So I've got one la last question for you, and it was, I think, it was your question about who inspired you about Dame Sue Campbell, because I remember seeing her speak at a conference and being blown away by her in terms of some of the things she was saying. And she asked the question, which I'd like to ask you. And I'm not trying to encourage you to retire anytime soon, Dawn, but the question was, what is the legacy that you'd like to leave behind as a leader? Wow. It feels like such a big question. I feel like I should give a big answer. I think it's simply this and that is, the legacy that I hope I leave is that I've made a difference to young people's lives. And I absolutely know that it is the, that the empowerment, and the coaching and the time we spend building others and growing others and helping others to be the best that they can be, that ensures that legacy won't be just our legacy now, but we'll just go on and on and on because they are- you help them to be the best that they can be. They in turn become great coaches of others and make a difference for others. And that way we can always make a difference for young people now and into the future. Dawn, thank you for joining me today, being so candid and being such a good sport, if I may, and as I taken on, with some questions that you didn't know were coming at all, that were, you know, fairly weighty questions, I know, I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and hope our listeners have as well. And I look forward to you joining us on the next episode. Great. Thanks Nick. It's been been great to spend some time with you.