#EdInfluence
In his inimitable style, Nick unearths the secrets of good leadership from his guests.
Trusted by thousands of education providers across the country, Browne Jacobson is an award winning national law firm helping clients and partner organisations shape and influence education policy.
#EdInfluence
S03 – E09 with Dan Kayne.
Dan Kayne is the founder of O Shaped, committed to making the legal profession better by putting people first. His approach to leadership development creates a much more human and personable way of engaging with business colleagues.
Dan trained at Dechert LLP before moving in-house to Network Rail in 2007. From 2016 to 2022 Dan was General Counsel at Network Rail, leading a team of 20 lawyers. In that time, Dan embedded his ‘people first’ approach to leadership, contributing to his team having the highest engagement scores across the company.
In 2019, Dan founded the O Shaped Lawyer, driven by a desire to improve the legal profession for those who use it, are entering it and buy services from it.
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Welcome to the latest episode of Ed Influence. I'm Nick MacKenzie from Brown Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Dan Kayne, founder of O Shaped. Thank you, Dan, for joining me today. I suspect we'll come back to O Shaped later, but I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are as a leader. So I'm gonna take you back 10 years or so, uh, Nick to when Oliver, my son was born. I've got two kids, 10-year-old Oliver, 6-year-old Eve, and Oliver's born really ill, critically ill. He had a critical pulmonary stenosis, which is a serious and life-threatening, uh, problem with a heart valve. And he spent his first month in hospital three weeks at Great Ormond Street. He was operated on on day four. And the surgeon that operated on him that an incredible, like, complex piece of surgery that to them is normal, but to us is kind of a whole new world of life experience and change by, uh, inserting a catheter in his groin in order to, uh, inflate a balloon in the heart the size of a wall, not to allow him to breathe. And when he explained the procedure to us, my wife and I, obviously in a very distressed state, he explained it so beautifully and so clearly and in a very compassionate and empathetic way. And then had to leave shortly after and said he apologized for leaving, but he had to go and conduct the same operation on a boy that was in the intensive care unit in the bed next to Oliver. And he kind of whisked off and left us with this kind of knowledge that he was our superhero. He'd saved Oliver's life and also ours, frankly. But it was really a year later when I started to really think about the impact that whole experience it had, and particularly on my own career, my own thinking about what is it I'm doing that's making a difference? And having been in the legal industry for 15 years already by then, I felt that it wasn't enough. And I felt that seeing what some people were able to do, both technically as well as from a very much a compassionate point of view, was a real eyeopener for me about what's the impact, what's the purpose that I'm gonna have when it comes to leadership in the future. And it was such a life changing period of time, and it has been really the precursor to everything that I do now. So, so how does that show up for you now then, in terms of what you're doing, Dan, that probably nicely leads us into what you're doing now. Well now, as founder of O Shaped and being an organization that's tagline is people first. And it's much more, I think, and I hope than a tagline, it's really about how do we bring humanity into the legal profession and make it part of our everyday work. Um, but the reason why it was linked to that, I think was my recognition that as a profession, we'd got it wholly wrong. We'd got it. I think in a space where technical excellence was considered the be all and end all. And what I'd seen from something in a much more critical environment, a terminal environment, was that you could combine that technical excellence, that cardiology excellence with compassion, with humanity, with the warmth that was required to help my wife and I through a traumatic period. And that, but that was so important and great. Ormond Street, I think epitomized that, that the heart and smart, as I've later called it and borrowed that phrase, I should say from a book I read, is so fundamental to a legal profession and it excelling within the legal profession that it was that moment when I realized we need to start building a legal profession that recognizes it can't just be about being really, really intelligent and smart, it's got to be about the heart as well. And I think that really laid the foundation for me, not immediately, but over time as these ideas percolated to say, how can we start thinking of a legal profession that is both hearts and smarts, that rewards and recognizes the emotional intelligence as much as the cognitive intelligence that we now start to look at people who are able to lead with empathy and passion and regard them as being genuine leaders as opposed to simply rewarding those who bring the most fees in, or who are technically the smartest. And that's a cultural and fundamental shift that perhaps when I first started out, Nick, I thought I'll be a dole. Turns out it's not, but it's one that I think gets me out of bed every morning to try and address. So that's probably the way in which over time it's linked. So I'm rea I was really interested No, I'm speaking you to today to to understand my understanding is that O Shaped started off as a, as a passion project, and then yeah, you decided to take the leap and go go all in in my words. Yeah. What w what made you do that? You know, it's, it's funny because it's become such an important part of you. I did it as a side of the desk project O shaped when it started, I started to develop thinking about creating the team. I was then leading, I was a general counsel soon after that experience. And I started thinking, how can I bring some of that humanity, that people first approach as we termed it to our day jobs? Um, and so we started to build a team with that ethos, very much front and center that we're gonna get to understand people better. We're gonna empathize not just from my own team's needs, but those of our stakeholders in the organization, and we're gonna really understand what they care about because that will help us deliver a better service as a legal provider to them. And once I started to realize that many other in-House teams shared this challenge about connecting with colleagues around the business, delivering a great legal service, that it not just being about being the smartest person in the room, I realized that there was something more here than simply from our team or just a few teams or just an idea that we'll, we'll hang around for a bit and be a fad and disappear. So it started to become a kind of side of the desk project that during Covid really started to blossom. And Covid was really almost the catalyst for it because it had the potential to remove all of what I valued so much the human connection and put us behind screens. Um, and yet what it did do was actually have the opposite effect. It started to open up people, their homes, looking at it through Zoom. It started to get people thinking about wellbeing in a different way. People would start conversations about how are you, how are your family? Are you struggling with what's going on? Mentally it might be quite challenging physically for people getting out the door once in a day for an hour is kind of a struggle for those who love the gym. So you started talking much more about people's interests and not just their work. And so the humanity actually I think started to become more of a, uh, a focal point during Covid than what I worried about was it being the opposite. And so people started thinking and linking OSHA much more to what people are experiencing during Covid. And I realized then that this human connection wasn't just a luxury, it wasn't just a side of the desk project anymore. This was how people went about their lives and ultimately how they felt most passionately about their work when they connected to people. And yet it was such an anathema to the legal industry until Covid, that you could be successful by putting people front and center. That once we came out of Covid, O Shaped had already become a really well-known concept. And it was something that was so embedded in me and never felt like work that to do it full-time as work was just such a natural progression. I'm not suggesting it was an easy mental decision to make, but from a, I've gotta do this. That was easy bit, Really interested in that dynamic. Do you, would you say it requires you courage to take the step to do it? Or I'm interested of, you know, lots of, obviously at state you had a successful career and to the, to go into something you really believed in. I mean, it really comes across strongly in terms of the amount of times you've mentioned humanity and it is clearly important to you. Yeah. Or, or was it just such an obvious thing that you wanted to do that it, it didn't feel like you needed to be courageous? It's a good question actually, Nick.'cause I, I never felt of it as courageous, but others perhaps looking outside in did, because again, we've come from a very institutionalized environment. When you come through the legal profession, many like me, certainly of my generation would've gone through university law school to, I went to a, uh, big firm. I went in-house. I've never really experienced anything outside of that environment until I became a leader in-house where I started to then explore all sorts of different opportunities outside of my swim lane. And, but for many who stay in the swim lane, that's seen as courageous. But by then I'd already started doing lots of different interesting things within network rail that were outside of the legal sphere. So the, the desire to move into a different space was a very easy step to take. Much more difficult is the risk aversion that naturally I had and I think had been in, built in me for years through my 25 plus years as a lawyer, was to say, well, what are all the things that are gonna go wrong with this? The natural legal response, it's gonna be, you know, will I be able to fund it? Will I be able to ever be a lawyer if this fails again, will I be so out of touch with the legal community? No. Or wanna talk to me? You almost catastrophized. And so the best thing I did was talking to lots of people who had gone through the same thing. Um, and I think that provided me a reassurance that many people said, what's the worst that can happen? Right? You've been able to hold down a job before you'll be able to hold down a job after. And it's clear if you don't do this, you are gonna regret it forever. And I think that point about don't have any regrets was ultimately the made it an easy decision in truth. And so I think you said that bringing their humanity into, into the provision of giving legal device, you know, at the start felt like an enma. How did you go about sort of moving the dial on that and the work I imagine you're still doing in terms of O Shaped where, what, and, and I suppose, what have you learned along the way in terms of trying to move that dial? I, I started to read up a lot about leadership, uh, and became very interested in a much more modern day progressive style of leadership around servant leadership, around empathetic leadership, which really chimed with me and what I was experiencing and trying to go through with my own team. And I'd been in organizations historically that were quite command and control style. Um, and that just didn't sit with me in terms of enabling others to thrive. So I thought of my role as a leader as genuinely cared about my team, and I wanted to make sure that they had the opportunity to be the best versions of themselves. So that for me meant that it had to be much more about them as people and less than as them about lawyers. I had to understand and care about their worlds outside of giving great advice on procurement law or commercial contracts. I want to know about them, the person. And that automatically means you are bringing a much more human approach to your work. It also, I learned means that you get the discretionary effort and the engagement and the motivation of people who you are leading because they're invested in you as well as their job. And if they are led by someone that they care about, that they see cares about them, it leads to a much happier and healthier working environment and ultimately a much more productive one. So I think drawing that link between engaged people, people that loved coming to work, people that felt like they were part of something had a better business outcome anyway.'cause all of a sudden our colleagues who I think were naysayers of the legal function in many respects when I joined, uh, as a leader than the legal function, were all of a sudden, all of a sudden what we found from our colleagues and stakeholders in the organization was that they were engaging with us differently because all of a sudden we were showing that we cared about them and what they were delivering. And that was all about the relationships and the human connections. And nothing about knowing the law inside out. Yes, of course our legal expertise would follow, but people would now listen to us because they trusted us, because we had built that trust. And that's a human to human connection. And I think that messaging, that learning was something I was able to take and share with others that saw, do you know what, there is something in this. And not just has traditionally been seen as soft skills that I used to hate and still do. That phrase that it's almost as if the law is the hardcore stuff and everything else is the soft add-on fluffy stuff. But making this mainstream, making human and business skills mainstream for me was just as important as the technical. And we had to make people see that it would, it would lead to a successful outcome. And that's the thing that we've had to, and I'm still having to do a lot of, is show this isn't just about being nice, this is about creating an environment where people thrive that leads to better business outcomes. And that's a hard message for an industry like the legal industry to, to, to grasp onto. I think I, I don't think it's, uh, exclusive to the legal industry, but time and time pressure. I mean, how many times do you hear people say, I haven't got enough hours in the day or enough time. But yeah, that I suppose is a real counterweight to being human, finding the time to listen, to be genuinely interested and have those conversations. Is is that a challenge, do you think? Do you know what it is? And most of the teams we'll work with will say one of their biggest challenges is the amount of work they've gotta do. Right? It's a, uh, particularly when you're working with in-house.'cause in private practice, in many respects, that's seen as a real positive, you know, we're really busy, that's great, that equals fees. But certainly in-house, the big challenge is, is too much work. But one of the things we talk about is if you can improve your relationships with your stakeholders internally that give you the work. And I think this applies to private practice as well, by the way, and we can come onto that, but if you have got a stronger connection and a better relationship, you are much more able to share when you've got too much work. When you feel like you're not gonna be able to deliver the level of quality that your stakeholders are entitled to expect because it's gonna be compromised by the volume of work and your lack of capacity. They'll understand that and they'll help you to focus on the priority. And of course there's lots of noise from lots of different places. So you need lots of connections and people who will speak for you and support you. But for me, again, it comes down to that human connection. You will be able to address the prioritization and the struggles with the volume. If you have relationships where you can be honest and open with people and tell them, do you know what we need more time? Or actually this isn't one that we can do now or we might not do at all. That's a lot easier coming from a place of trust than one of lack of trust. And I think the same applies to private practice where a stronger relationship with the client means, do you know what? My team is really, really at full, full stretch now. If you can wait a week for that, we'll have it with you. But that's a really brave law firm that asks their client to wait a week, right? And yet we should be doing more of it. We should be doing more of it. And, and one of the things OSHA's looking to try and do is bring, you know, the law firm, you know, we work as you know, closely with Brown Jacobson partnership with Brown Jacobson to bring Brown Jacobson colleagues together with client colleagues and have these conversations.'cause no one wants anyone to get hurt in their job. No one wants anyone to fall over in their job. And in fact, I think everyone wants each other to thrive. That's genuinely how most people I speak to feel and think. So why not make it easy for each other rather than harder? Yeah. It strikes me as a a very human conversation you were saying there between law firm and client perhaps switching tact a uh, a little bit. I was wondering what's on your your mind this week? What are the things, the sort of things I'm recognizing this is going out probably so maybe limits, but what are the sorts of things you are thinking about? So I, I've got this constant thought that goes through my mind about nearly two years into O Shaped now. And actually that's why timely this week, next week will be two years Easter, um, exactly two years, um, is what does the future hold for OSHA and what does it mean for the profession and how can we show impact? Um, and it's been great to gain the traction that OSHA has. And I've loved being able to talk to brilliant people about something I really care about and I hope inspire people along the way as well. But for O Shaped to exist and thrive in the future and hopefully inspire many more people, we've gotta make sure that we are having an impact and demonstrate that impact. And at the moment, you know, this week I've done a lot of reflection on how do we know that all of the time and effort we're putting in is ultimately helping us to achieve our purpose, to make the legal profession better for those who are in it, those who use it and those who are entering it. And can I say hand on heart at the moment? I could show you that Nick? No. Do I want to be able to show you that next year if we have this conversation again? Absolutely. I do. And I feel like we are doing it, but it's very hard to show it. And that's been taking a lot of my mental gymnastics this week trying to get my head around it. I can see, I can see that that's, um, it's a great, um, vision and mission you've got. But I think we all struggle sometimes of we feel it, but actually being able to demonstrate it externally is, is a challenge. So, um, I look forward to seeing how you get on with that over the next year in terms of articulating it. Um, how much time do you make to think as a leader, Dan? Uh, I always made time for it, even when I was in the day job as a lawyer. I think I make more of it now. So just taking you back, one of the things that I remember doing as a first team meeting, I had the first group of people together as a gc and it was, and I'd been mentally kind of going through that first meeting beforehand'cause it was quite a big milestone. All of a sudden you've reached the kind of pinnacle of where, you know, the in-house role I thought I might reach. And there were 25 or so people then in those days sitting around a room table that, you know, and, and, and having the opportunity to, to be, be able to set, set the tone for the future. And I asked a question and posed something to the table and there was deathly silence and one person piped up and said, said, you've probably been thinking about that question a lot. We haven't had time to think about that question and yet you are expecting us to be able to give you a response straight away. And I thought it was a really interesting and useful challenge back because sometimes you forget when you are in that leadership position and you do think regularly about your impact on others and your success as a leader and a function of a team. You want, you want the rest of your team to think that way, but they're far too busy too. And it was quite an eye-opener for me to, to now take a step back next time and, and hopefully bridge that gap first before I posed a question like I did last time. And I think that was a good lesson for me. That, and it's now is, is something I think about regularly is I do think through a lot of the issues that we're talking about regularly, I do think about what good leadership looks like in our profession and more broadly, do I think about my own leadership style as much? No. Um, and do I always practice what I preach? Probably not, but I want to get better at that. But I do think about it quite a lot. Yeah, that observation, um, something similar is fed back to me recently. You can ask a question that, and it, it can be personality driven or it can be such a weighty question, anyone would want the time to properly reflect before answering it. So I can really connect with that Dan, um, in interested and li who's one of earlier guests on this um, series, she, she talked about the power of choir influence in leadership and I was just wondering whether you could share your observations, um, either what you've seen work well for others or what you, you've done yourself in terms of making those decisions in terms of when to lead using influence and when to actually use the formal power that sort of goes with the leadership role. Yeah, and and no one's really ever accused me of quiet influence. There's no doubt about that. Um, I think one of the, when I was the general counsel and had the side project, it doesn't feel like the right phrase, but was certainly a passion project on the side of the desk at the time with osha, that for me was where I was quite proud that we were making some progress with the in-house community in particular because there was no authority there whatsoever. So I had no power. Um, and yet being able to lead without authority for me was an even more, I think, proud moment that people then were influenced because they believed in your vision and your passion for something as opposed to we've got to do it 'cause Dan's our boss. That for me is a wholly different level of leadership and I am still most proud of that. And in fact, I still sometimes pinch myself when I think about how much time people are voluntarily giving to push forward the OSHA messaging and movement. Um, and you know, for me going forward, I want to now make sure others can take this on without me at all. Right. So could OSHA carry on with its it what it's trying to do without, without me at the moment? Probably not. But is that where I want to get to? Yes. I'd love to get to that now. That means I need to be, I think being able to allow others even more responsibility to go out and take it forward. So I have to, the more re I can relinquish control, the better it will be for the movement for change. And that in itself is quite a significant leadership leap that I'm not sure I'm even ready to make yet because it's kind of like, it's your baby, right? I've kind of, I've, I've nurtured it for five years and yes, it's got legs still to go somewhere, but ultimately it will only, it will only achieve that grand vision if I allow it to go. I was really interested in your bio you described and on your website you described yourself as a founder Dan, and there's obviously other titles you could have, have used and it felt like there might be something in in that. Could you de describe how you, how you came on wanting to be called founder rather than something else? It feels like it could be important. Yeah, I, I really struggled with what to call myself'cause I've only ever been a lawyer, general counsel, and then all of a sudden you've now got a, you've now got to call yourself something that's meaningful to other people. And it was really, you know, just not having that title of general counsel was a, I felt would be a really significant step. Uh, so much so that even on my LinkedIn profile now, I still have general counsel written on there somewhere. It's very hard to let go. Um, but it starts founder osha then general counsel and, and I think it's founder because, um, the alternative, the immediate alternative was CEO And I never felt that I was chief executive anything frankly. Um, and at the time being me as just the only officer, it felt wrong to call myself the Chief effectively officer and there's no executive. So it felt, it felt it wasn't necessarily the right title. Founder is broad enough I think hopefully to, for people to ask a bit more to be curious. Um, and I hope over time it, I'll move away from founder.'cause founder kind of suggests it's very much in startup mode, right? That's my feeling of it. I'm sure that's not necessarily true factually, but it feels when you put founder, it's a bit startup-y it's a little bit disruptive and I hope that we'll get to the stage where we'll always have that element of disruptiveness about us. But we'll be substantial and significant enough that we'll have a CEO, whether it's me or someone else in the future, we'll have a CEO that is overseeing an executive that is driving change across the profession. That would be great. But I just think it's too early yet for me to see myself as a CEO. Uh, I, the title has never been for me the determining factor. It's been about how can we make people feel like the OSHA is for them as opposed to it's about me. And that's, I'm not sure I get that balance right often enough.'cause I've still got however much I want to share that sense of o shaped, I still kind of have this, I don't know, this sense of, I love talking about it so much, so to not be the person on stage talking about it. I've not quite got my head around that yet and I'm working on that. Be uh, I I was just thinking there. You you mentioned disruption and even when you, you, you, you felt like you were, um, you were more advanced in what you were trying to achieve and perhaps having the, the articulation of the impact that you were describing a a moment ago. Um, why is disruption important to you? As I, I've never been a fan of the status quo. I just think the status quo is a bit bland. I think too many times, maybe again, it's just become institutionalized through what we've done for so long. But people doing what they've always done and don't push things'cause it's the way it's done around here just irritated me. And I've always kind of thought, can we not do a bit better? Can we not even just take that little thing and make it a bit smarter? Um, but again, in your, in when you are in the fairly traditional environment that we've grown up in, that frankly is very successful when money is your measure of success, why do you need to tinker with something? If it ain't broke, just leave it alone. And I've, that's frustrated me.'cause I think for a, you know, as a buyer of legal service, I thought it is a bit broken. And then I thought when I started running osha, actually there's lots of our profession that's very broken. Why should we just accept that? Um, so I I I like to be a bit of an agitator for change, to stimulate different conversations, to encourage people to think a little bit more broadly, take that step back and say, can we do things better? We know we can, frankly, everyone can, but for people to feel like they are the solution as opposed to someone else will solve it. And I was always in that place of, yeah, this isn't right. That's not right. Someone needs to do this, they need to address that. And it was only when I realized that, that I am they, that I thought, do you know what if if you don't get up and do it, then no one else will. So I think that's where the disruptor bit comes in and I wanna see it as a positive disruptor. Not someone's just coming in to disrupt for the sake of it, but to disrupt for a good reason, I think is a, is a title I'm comfortable with. Thank you. Em, a a while ago you were, you were describing elements of I think what you probably call followship or followership. Um, I, I was curious, is there, is there a leader that you followed and if, if there is, what was it that that sort of attracted you? Why did you follow them? As I was making my way through the profession, I didn't see anyone that really inspired me right in, in within that, that, um, uh, environment I was in. And it was really only when I left what I felt was a very Ted bubble of big law and moved outside and saw the bigger, wider world that I start to see people who genuinely inspired me. And that would be people, um, whether it was at Network Rail or whether it was at other generally corporates I saw, rather than law firms, I dealt with watching people, particularly people who spoke publicly and spoke publicly, really articulately without any notes who were able just to capture the audience's attention. That for me was something I found inspirational. Um, being able to hold an audience of hundreds of people and they were all quiet and they were all hanging off every word you said. That for me was something I really looked up to as being incredible and feeling that someone could have so much power or influence just by the words they're using. That that for me is a real sign of leadership. Um, and I think that has led me to, in part to where I am now and what I do today.'cause I love talking to people. I'm not always as articulate as the people I've had in mind that I'm thinking of now, but I've seen the power and influence that you can have by words. And I think that's, that for me is really inspirational. An effective leader is a storyteller. Does does that resonate? A hundred percent. One of the, um, one of the former directors of comms director many years ago at Network Rail was leaving and I had a session with him before he left a kind of just a download and, and I was asking about career development. We're going back some time and he was a senior executive and he said to me, you've really, from what we've talked about, I don't know your story well enough, I don't think, I think you need to learn how to tell your story better. And storytelling has become, I think, one of my strengths. I hope as a result, not just of that conversation, but seeing great people on stage and the way they describe it. It's a brilliant influencer when you are trying to get your message across and build trust. And one of our key attributes is around influence and trust with osha, but it's not something that has ever focused on enough in our industry. Even though we say our role as legal advisors is to influence outcomes, well, we've done it traditionally by telling people the law and almost as a, if you don't do this, you will suffer bad things as opposed to creating the narrative and the storytelling as to helping to make your case. And look, you look at the very best orators, whether they're in our own profession, barristers, they're brilliant storytellers and it's massively influential when you hear people who are very good at it. So it's a long-winded answer to you. Is it important? Yes. Have I seen it work? Absolutely. Do I think we should do more training of it in our profession? Yes. I was wondering what, whether you could share some of the reflections on what you've done either at Network Rail or indeed in the organization you created in to really go about fostering belonging at your, your organization. Because I think it's, it's a real, you talked about the pandemic earlier as well and the sort of changing the, that dynamic and I suppose you were describing about vulnerability and people being into seeing into each other's lives much more, be really interested in your observations on what you are doing and what you've done in the past. I think the messaging of people first was a, was a real marker in the sand for belonging Nick. Um, it didn't go down with everyone brilliantly lawyer fur. It was people first, then lawyer because people said, actually no, we're here because we're lawyers. And it took a while to convince people actually, look, you're great at being a lawyer. Let's, let's focus on the person. Um, but one of the things I did, I felt that landed quite well and we started doing more regularly after, and it may be something people do already or should take up, was in that, um, in one of the first team meetings, not perhaps the first team meeting where I lost that person by not giving them clarity over the question, but one of 'em, we had a me on the page. So everyone came with a one page printout that they presented to everyone else about what they cared about right in life. That was it. There was no other particular direction. What do you really care about? So people told their story, their life story in, in within five minutes about their family, about what they're passionate about, the charities they work for. And what was incredible was 50% of people gave up time to charity in our team of 25 that no one knew. Not everyone knew people said, oh no, they've done an hour for that charity. So all of a sudden you are now building connections with people who have got things in common they didn't realize they had in common. So I, I've, I think being able to use that opportunity for people to share what they care about is a brilliant way of connecting others to something you are passionate about. So most for me, of the belonging doesn't come from the being in the same office and it can't really now because of remote working, but it comes from drawing links between what people are passionate about. And so one of the ways that we emphasized that was constantly to be going round time and again, as to who hasn't done their, what I care about on a page for a year or 18 months, let's do it again, right? It's okay if we've heard it before, that's fine, but we'll have a new person in the team that won't have done so let's spend the time. And to some people that might have been frustrating because you know what, we know that you like working for that charity. But what you then find is the person that's just coming new to the team would say, oh, such and such works there, don't they? And all of a sudden they've built a connection so the new person to the team feels like they're part of it already. So I think that's, that for me was the, was a really useful way of authentically being able to create a belonging environment. And the other one that I didn't know it was called at the time, but psychological safety is one I've really warmed to since I've been working with o with the OSHA approach. Um, I just saw it as creating an environment where everyone felt like they could contribute, speak up, that they would have a voice. And now, you know, since, since being much more, um, uh, uh, involved with the O Shaped and leadership and being really, uh, and embracing, you know, uh, psychological safety from, um, Amy Emin's work, I've realized actually that's what we were doing. I, I've realized actually we were allowing people to the space and time to contribute regardless of their level of hierarchy that then made people want to come to work. And I, I, I've had, as I'm sure many of your listeners have, I've had the Sunday blues in previous jobs where I just didn't want to go to work on the Monday morning and that's a, a place I never want to get to again. And I used to say that to team members who were struggling at times and I said, if this isn't the right place for you, if you feel like that, then I will help you find somewhere that is right for you. And if that's not here, that's fine. Um, and it had to happen a couple of times and that's okay because that's not to say the person isn't brilliant, it's to say that he or she wasn't suitable for this environment or I couldn't get the most out of him or her. So in that sense, identifying where people didn't belong and being able to help 'em find somewhere that they did belong was just as important, if that makes sense. Um, because you can't be all things to all people. And I think that's one of the things I learned quite quickly about leadership. I try to please everyone all the time thinking that was your job as a leader and it, and it, and it's not. Um, so I, I hope that people who work with me felt a sense of belonging and that I helped those that struggled with it. And that for me, I think hope is a legacy that I'd like to be able to look back on and see as an impact and talk, you know, coming back to this point about impact, it needs to be something tangible. We are, we are nearly out of time. Just probably two, two last questions. Could, could you complete the following sentence for me? In a, an effective leader is Someone who cares about their followers. Brilliant. And what quality do you see in in your children that you wish you had? They have such different qualities. I mean, Oliver is autistic and so in him I see a real sense of curiosity that I think I never had. You just take things for granted. Whereas he doesn't. And some of the questions he asks are incredibly insightful that I don't think others would ask. And I think that sense of curiosity is brilliant, not just assuming that everything is as it is, it's the asking the why. And I think for Neve, 'cause she's such a force of nature, I think her, her, uh, her age at six, to have the confidence that she does is, and it's not overstepping the mark, it's confidence that others then really kind of energize from is brilliant. And I hope that now I'm, I've got some of both of those things, but to have them then absolutely incredible. So we learn off them every day. Absolutely. Thank, thank you so much for joining me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed our, our discussion. Thank you for being so candid and sharing so openly and I do hope our listeners have enjoyed the discussion as well. Thanks Nick. Having me.
