S03 – E10 with Janice Kay CBE.

In this episode we hear from Janice Kay CBE, Director of Higher Futures, former Provost and now Special Advisor to the Vice Chancellor at the University of Exeter. 

Janice is also Special Advisor to Kortext and Chairs the Board of Trustees for University Maths Schools (U-Maths), the University Maths Schools Network formed of 11 schools across the country. 

Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn.

Chapters

• 2:05 Planning is everything
• 4:07 Making time to think
• 6:47 Following a leader
• 9:23 Fostering a sense of belonging
• 18:50 Being an agent of change
• 27:00 Listening for that true signal
• 32:38 The mission
• 36:50 Leading in place: the role of universities
• 39:26 The joy of being a leader

Transcript

0:04

Welcome to the latest episode of Ed Influence. I'm Nick McKenzie from Brown Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Janice Kay, who has a long career in management in higher education, has recently just started a new venture called Higher Futures. Thank you, Janice, for joining me today. I, I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are as a leader. Well, thanks Nick. And just to say it's great to be here and participating, I thought a bit about this and the stories that I would tell, and I think there's quite a few that, um, illuminate my life journey about growing up in 1960 and 1970s Birmingham. But actually, you asked about a picture of who I am as a leader, leader, and I thought I would talk about something that actually changed me as a leader and was really forged in fire. Uh, and that was when I became Deputy Vice Chancellor as exactly the points in which the university was plunged into serious financial difficulties. And people had recognized that something needed to be done, but no one had acted until the arrival of a new vice chancellor and a new registrar. And it was obvious, uh, that a critical financial restructuring plan needed to be devised and that it needed to be focused on the weaker areas. And the weaker areas were PSP and science and engineering, and they were the schools that were my responsibility. So that's what I was pitched into within a month actually, of being appointed that position. So actually, I think the questions are about what did I learn about that time? I learned that planning is everything. The idea was to cut, but not so deeply that we couldn't build back and then to build back in areas that we knew we could grow and thrive in. So life and environmental sciences, business biology, climate, marine, all the things that X to now is famous for. Um, I learned that planning is everything, but stuff will happen and that you need to be really flexible, flexible of mind, and flexible of opportunity to deal with stuff. Um, and I also learned that leadership is not a game, um, that you are dealing with people's lives, your staff and your students, and that you always owe them a, a duty of care, respect and kindness. So it was, you know, it was months of sleepless nights and worry, I think, for a lot of people, but it really forged me actually as a leader, and I learned a lot. Thanks. Thanks, Janice. So that, those sleepless nights, what did you do to recharge your batteries, to look after yourself, to keep your energy levels up when presumably others around you were feeling the same? Well, um, I also had, um, two relatively small children. Um, a husband, a child and adolescent psychiatrist who had a very difficult job. So actually we had a home life that was busy and full, and there were periods there where I simply had to switch off. Um, but the usual things kind of walking, reading, chopping, uh, but actually I, I think it was always there in the back of, of my mind. And I think when you are doing things like that, it's an afterwards really that you're able to reflect. And thinking about reflection then. Do you make much time to think as a leader? Well, I think that is a seriously interesting question.'cause the endless tale from leaders is that they don't have sufficient time to plan. They go from one meeting to another to another. Often the meetings are very different, where actually, despite papers you are responding, uh, and you have to act on your feet. And it's quite difficult then to reflect. And sometimes the only time you have to reflect is in the later evenings and weekends. So I think that, you know, I, in my experience, leaders have strategies that look in their diaries, which are not their own. You will have things there like, um, uh, a personal appointment or, you know, doctor visit or, um, uh, sort of research time. And a lot of those periods are actually just to catch up and reflect. And I think actually that also requires a good team around you who understand what's going on. So it's a very supportive unit. And, uh, because when you're actually getting into that thinking space, are there, were there sorts of questions that you'd like to, to think about? I don't know. What would an outsider do in this situation? What doesn't fit here? Is there? Or is it it would just really depend on what was going on. Um, I think that in, in terms of the skills that you need as a leader, which principally are around talking to as many people as you can and understanding actually not necessarily what one person tells you, but what several or many people tell you. Uh, and actually not just in terms of what people tell you around observation. And so it's listening hard, I think, to what is going on. I think it is about taking advice. I think it's also about finding out what other people are doing in the sector and stealing with pride. I mean, that's always been a watch word actually. You know, why, why, to use another metaphor, why, why reinvent the wheel? There's lots of really good practice that's going on. So, you know, if you think it things are bad or things are tough, there are always going to be people in the same or worse positions. So seek advice, help. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, is there, in your own experience, is there a leader that you've followed in particular? And if, if there was somebody, what, why is it you followed them? Well, the standout person for me, because they've colored so much of my life actually in universities, is the, the vice chancellor I worked for, for 18 years. And, and I still count as a close friend. And that's, uh, professor Sir Steve Smith, a shout out to him because he's quite an inspirational and spectacular person. And, and why did I follow him? Uh, I could have left. I didn't, uh, I stayed because of him, and it was because I believed in what he was trying to do, his vision, if you like, and in how he created that. So he, he created a strong bonded team. He used data all the time, everything, every decision was data-based and evidence-based. And, uh, he had a, a, a clear understanding of the choices the future would bring. Um, and the thing I particularly liked was that he was able to convey that he trusted you and believed in you. Um, and that gave you delegation and the freedom to act. And I think that's, that's quite difficult in a, in a senior team in universities of multimillion uh, turnovers. If you are constantly having to report back or micromanaged, then it makes it a very difficult role to fulfill. And Steve was not like that. It was a very clear vision, uh, and uh, and then actually just come back and tell me what you are doing. He would also triangulate and say, how do you think this is going across the university? Which was also a good thing. So yeah, he's a stand person there. Lots of others. But yeah, he was of, I dunno if you, you've seen it, Owen Eastwood wrote a really interesting book I read not not too long ago, called Belonging. And it, it, it basically makes the case that there's a sort of primal need of humans to belong to a group in order to thrive. And I was wondering, you started off the, particularly in terms of your role and access, saying it was a very challenging time, but there was clearly a close team where you worked with Steve, for example, for 18 years. Um, give us your reflections on what you, what you did as a management team in terms of fostering that. I imagine that sense of belonging to the organization and the team, et cetera. Yes. And, and I, I'm glad you brought up this, this quality of belonging, because I can see it through, uh, when I was growing up in, in Birmingham, the sense that I wanted to belong. And there were reasons in my family circumstances that I didn't feel I did. Um, I felt I was a stranger going to university. There was no one in my family that had been to the university. And a few, uh, after I, my cousin and my cousin went. Um, and so I feel I've been sort of constantly looking myself for that sense of, of belonging. And I think the students as well, um, a sense of belonging goes hand in hand with better engagement, better engagement in learning. And actually if you, if you run it through a sense ultimately of feeling, uh, mentally well, though I think belonging, whether you're a staff member or a student is absolutely fundamental. I would say that in the early days where it felt that we were kind of running fast breaking things, uh, in terms of restructuring the university, it was very, very difficult to bring people with you that some people we were with you and will say, why did it take you so long? And others were, well, you've, you've just unpicked what was, uh, perfectly wonderful subject area. Um, so I think that was difficult. But I think over time we, we have tried, or we tried as a senior team to give more agency, more agency through leadership positions, but also through individuals in how we set things up. And I think that when we had the latest iteration of the strategy, which is a brilliant thing, under the new vice chancellor profess Lisa Roberts, there was a really massive lifting exercise across the whole university, which was a very big conversation where people could, you know, there were lots of interactive sessions, there were lots of opportunities to put down written comments or verbal comments and going into a melting pot for how the strategy could develop and listening carefully. And so the ideas they went in were not the same ideas as they came out. They had been changed by what people said. So, you know, it is the importance there, I think, of clarity and communication and transparency. Thank, thank you. I was a moment ago you talked about running fast and breaking things and uh, I I was also reflecting on being in, in the management team for such a long time. When you speak to, to people, you people can get addicted to the pace of dealing with crisis after crisis and so, so on. Yeah. How would you, if you reflect back on such a long, a long time in terms of leading the university, would, would you reflect on finding the right pace in terms of to set for the organization?'cause you can't go on full tilt the whole time. You can't, and I think every organization has to be a learning organization. And I think, uh, when we were in the position where we were in, because of the, the nature of the sector, we did realize that we only had a window in which to act. And that we did have to, to change things. But actually there is finding the natural pace, uh, in order to get an institution that really does feel, uh, inclusive, uh, that is all about the people and creating the culture that can deliver that, uh, that, that I don't think is an easy thing to do. I I think you'd have all the strategies in the world. I don't think the strategies, if you really understanding the environment are that difficult to produce. And lots of them look very similar. It's all about the delivery. And the delivery has principally to be hand in hand with your staff and students. And we often said the Tofa students were happy that reflected on the feelings of the staff actually, that were helping their learning and educating them. I, I was wondering, 'cause you, you shared a story at the outset of, of, of that significant moment in terms of starting at, at exit. But I was wondering, over that period of time, is there another story, a moment or experience in your, in your life that's changed the way you view leadership generally? I think, I think what I would say to that is that there isn't a single story, but a number of stories that have changed and we've just been talking about it basically changed the way in which I operate as a leader. You know, thinking about, you know, in a sense it was not about me. It was about being building a strong, it, it was about building a strong team, uh, uh, actually having really good people, people with whom it was fun to work with. Um, and the sense also that one could get things done and move things. So I would charact, uh, characterize it not necessarily as a num as a single example of leadership, but, uh, incrementally how my leadership changed as the university, as the sector, as the people I was working with changed to. Um, I, I'm a person that might go back to sort of bonding, belonging, rather, uh, belonging, uh, where, um, I have this deep loyalty and I have loyalty to organizations and to people and organizations and people change. So actually you have to say goodbye to some things and some ways of operating and embrace others. It's back to the point I made earlier about you have to have a flexibility in your leadership style. And I think I, I learned that over the 18 years of working atter. You've mentioned students a few times today so far. I wanted to to, to ask what quality do you see in your students or recently that, that you wish you had? Oh, that's, that's really, that's a really interesting question. Um, I think there is a characterization of young people at the moment, uh, as being, you know, it's hard to get them to vote. It's hard to get them politically motivated. Uh, you know, they, they require a lot of support, especially in mental health and wellbeing. And I think they, they probably do. And I think there are reasons for that. But actually what I admire, uh, at the moment about students in general and our students is their, their liveliness, their, the absorption of learning like a sponge in can do their sense of innovation that things can be done differently. And I really love the kinds of things that they are doing around climate, around marine, uh, and around wellbeing. And I think actually I have learned so much from working with our students, which is why actually from really early on, what I wanted to do was to sponsor and support their agency, um, how they can act as agents to change how they can be partners, how they can really drive their own learning. And I think that's really important at the moment. That's learning fundamentally changes through digital, you know, because they understand digital in a way that many of us, many working in universities at the moment actually don't understand and don't particularly want things to change as they will fundamentally in terms of the nature of learning. And our students can help us to harness that and to facilitate their own learning and that of their teachers at the same time. I was struck by what you said then about agents of change. So thinking back to your own leadership and you being an agent of change, could you share a few reflections? Um, I think there are preconditions of being an agent of change. Um, I think that you need to work as a collective, as a team. It's very difficult for an individual student, uh, or staff member or leader to actually change things without being part of a coalition. Um, but actually I think students needs to be supported to learn how to be agents of change. And the way that we started it was around if there was something they didn't particularly like with their curriculum, they couldn't just say, oh, I don't like, this doesn't work for me. It had to have a little bit of research around it that actually said, there's a problem here. We can evidence that there is a problem. We can talk and listen to staff members and to ourselves as a group, as a learning group about the possibilities of the way in which we can change, uh, and then we can en enact that change now. Now that model as noted of change to simply apply to the curriculum is also the way fundamentally you can get things change, change in your later life, in your lifelong learning, and your lifelong learning should be as an agent of change, using the skills that you have learned about that really to encapsulate and evidence an issue. And then thinking about the next steps for, uh, for how you might address it. Could you complete the following sentence? Uh, Janice, an effective leader is, Oh, an effective leader. Okay. Is someone I think who is clear, uh, about, uh, what the mission is for, what they're, for, what they're working on. It is about, uh, being an effective team player and thinking about how to build a team. Um, I think looking for good development and I think get a coach or mentor, um, I think be clear and communicate well and think, talk to others and learn from them. Listen really hard and understand others' perspectives and, and be inclusive rather than just talking about it. Act actually effectively what you, in the ways in which you want to lead. You've, you've mentioned listening an awful lot in our discussion so far, and, you know, as a concept, I think we all get it, but in a, in a busy organization, it is incredibly hard to do well. I was wondering if you could say some reflections on things that you found you've observed that have worked really well. You know, a good way to really listen, Actually. Um, I've learned a lot from, um, some of my colleagues. Uh, one person coming new into the organization, um, observing me. She wasn't asked to do the role, observing me in a meeting. It was a new meeting when I was anxious about, and she said to me afterwards, you need to step back a little bit more and let people speak. Don't be the first, at the beginning of the meeting to say something. Actually leave that silence for people to fail. And that will be difficult, but over time people will learn more to come in. I think there is also something we all know that conversations can be, can be gendered, for example. And actually you can, you can get, um, uh, a woman, for example, new to a conversation who may pause, who may need actually to be, to be brought into a conversation or another actually, uh, a man actually defocused on giving the group their views. So I think that's something the way in which one acts in groups in those situations that is now taught and people now think about. But those are the things that I think you, you, you have to use. And that is about planning. So that's not immediately just going into a meeting and reading all the papers. It's thinking about how the meeting might unfold and the kinds of, um, alternative futures for how that meeting might go. Books intact slightly. What, what would be the the best advice you would give to someone who's taken on a new leadership role? The best advice, I think would be not to leap in, uh, and I think this is usual actually, because if you interview people as I have thousands of times, and you ask them about, you know, what would you do on your first a hundred days? And lots of them will say, they will go and talk to people and they will listen and they will find out what people think about the, uh, about particular issues and particular circumstances. And I think it's part of that listening for that true signal. You get a lot of noise in what people are saying, but it's trying to synthesize that. And I think to begin with, as a leader, one needs to have that, one needs to be able to signal also that one is, uh, approachable. Uh, and one you need, I think as a leader, uh, to give a little bit of yourself, you know? And if you've had a kind of terrible day, you know, and one of your kids is ill and you're trying to juggle, uh, uh, juggle things, I think there's nothing wrong with saying things like that, actually showing that you are a little bit of a, of a human being. Um, and also, I mean, I had the most fantastic, um, two people, Lizzie Coy and Jen f who were, uh, my job share business managers. And they were just simply amazing. So I would say get yourself a really good team, one you can laugh with, but one who will give you through, um, critical advice yourself. This may not be the right way to approach this kind of advice. So I think there is that too, but, but also there is developing a clarity of how you're speaking and communication skills, and that isn't something that is necessarily, um, uh, uh, uh, not everyone is born with it or develops it. A lot of communication is confidence and it can be learned. So I would say then as a senior leader, it's not a bad idea to have a mentor or a coach. I, I was really struck by you, you said something like, listen for that true signal. Um, could you say a bit more about it? I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I just want that, that really struck me as an interesting thought. Um, I think a lot of senior leadership is understanding what is, uh, what is going right for people, but also going wrong. Um, and I don't think you necessarily, that the first explanation that you might get it is not necessarily the right one. It is one bit of information. So I think, you know, say if there's a, this seems to be a major problem in it, you know, the delivery of laptops to pluck something from, from random, you know, I think that, you know, there may be an obvious solution. They're not being bought, they're not being bought because, uh, the, the, a provider department is not buying them. They're trying to save money, or it's just an inefficient process. All of those things might be right, might be a combination of all three, but they might also be wrong. So I think you have to go and listen to what different kinds of people are saying. I think there's also something about, um, so what evidence would I need to actually tell me where the true signal is? What are the data telling me? Um, so you are, it's multiple sources, actually. It's a bit like being historian, I guess. You are trying to get that true signal from the sources that you've got, but ultimately there may not be a single truth. And so in the end, you have to take a decision which you think is best given of the sources and, and evidence. And you may be wrong, but you may also be right. But it isn't rushing in and saying, uh, I understand it now, after listening to one person, One of the, I think my first guest actually on this series, she said, uh, a professor from Australia, she said, look for the gaps. Sometimes there's more in the gaps than there in there is in what's said and done. Does that resonate? Yes, uh, that really does resonate. Yes. Yeah. And then that isn't trying to winkle out the gaps, you know, tell me about this more to someone in a meeting, but it might be something that you would want to follow up in a sensitive way, uh, just to try and get to where the, um, you know, to where the answer is. And I, and I think for me, why is that important? I think that's important because if you need to deliver a plan, you have to have effective systems and processes without them being bureaucratic, but things do need to work. And actually getting them work, working and understanding where all the, all the pitfalls are and understanding when things are maybe not going right or maybe are going right, but could fear of, I think are the, the most important things that a senior leader needs to understand. It's the strategic delivery, and actually that's what we're trying to do in higher futures. It's actually supporting senior leadership teams, not just in strategy, not just helicoptering in, have you thought about doing this, but actually in supporting, uh, the senior team's ability to deliver? So what was the motivation for setting up higher futures, Janice? Well, um, Chris husband's, uh, professor circus husbands, who is the chair of the last Tef and the chair of the current Tef. Uh, and I, I've known him for a good while now, and we talked about both leaving our senior Ross, who's vice chancellor of Sheffield Hall University at roughly the same time, and feeling the sense that actually, yeah, again, you know, wanting to sort of give back to a sector that both of us truly believe in and believe in the potential of, and seeing significant challenges at the moment, uh, for the sector sector and actually simply wanting to continue, uh, with the work around strategy that we were doing day to day delivery that we were doing day to day, and using our experience to support others. That was the, that was the reason. And thinking big pic picture, I'm not trying to hurry you along here, but I was just wondering, what would you like the legacy of your leadership to be, and perhaps what you do with higher futures? Um, I would like the legacy in a small way to be, uh, supporting senior teams to be as effective as they can be in this really challenging time, I think through higher futures, but also more generally, I, I really want to continue the work that I've done in terms of supporting social mobility, supporting learner engagement, supporting digital learning, uh, and supporting, uh, higher education, you know, as lifelong, uh, as a, as a key part of my, my legacy, as grand as that, That, you know, it is a, it is a big question. I appreciate the, you've mentioned lifelong a lot, and I think you've let, you've left lots of breadcrumbs to this question almost, but I'm curious, how would you describe the mission that's sort of driven and connected to your, your leadership roles? Dennis? This is gonna sound, uh, very grand. Okay. But I, uh, have just finished the biography of, uh, KMA, and he talks in there about two things that motivate him. One is the sense of service. Uh, and I believe in that sense of service. I really believe in universities as forces for good. Um, and I believe in the public se sector, and I have always wanted to work in universities, even though I have no background at all, uh, and I want to do whatever I can to support the public goods. So there's that, uh, sense of service. There's also a sense of of of actually wanting to make things better and, uh, and to help things improve for a better experience for people who work in universities, for alumni of universities, graduates, and, uh, and for students and for students, it's just the, you know, uh, continuation of, uh, the work on, um, their empowerment in their education. Folks can be often misattributed in change over the years, but one that feels relevant to the current times to me, but I wonder whether it resonates with you, is a leader, is a leader in hope. Yeah, I think that's right. And I mentioned about, uh, how I felt, um, Steve could give people when we were thinking about the university itself and his senior team could give that message of hope that things, uh, could be better, and that there was a confidence there that perhaps had been lacking. It's a much, much broader question. And, and I think at the moment, one, one sees what has been happening to the public realm. There isn't a lot of hope around is there, you know, there are issues to do with, uh, cost of living for the students that look at graduate employment, uh, you know, that, that actually look at sort of mental safety and wellbeing that I think could be, could be pretty grim at the moment. Uh, and I think that universities, uh, do are beacons of hope, and I think people who work in them see that actually that's why they work there. But I think there is, there are things out there. I think there are some sort of quite dark forces that actually don't see universities as being sort of beacons or places of hope, but actually places that foment, uh, activism and make things a hell of a lot more difficult, uh, within the public realm. I don't agree with that. And I think one has to keep on sort of talking about what universities do, what they can do, and demonstrating that in terms of, you know, what, we produce brilliant things that we produce from sort of vaccines to understanding minds, civilizations better, you know, uh, to actually educate people who are gonna address some of the challenges that we currently have with climate. They're gonna fix them. And that's all outta universities. And we're running outta of time, but just probably two final questions. There's, universities are very connected to their communities, um, yeah. That, that, that they're situated in. Could you talk a little bit about your perspectives as, as, as leading in, in place, perhaps, if I could put it that way, Leading in place. I, I think it is a really important role for a university. If you're not of your community, you're not really gonna meet your full potential as an institution. It's the same as if you're not of your team, you are not going to be able to be part of that team and to, to help it make change. Um, what I have felt, because the Southwest is a, is a particular collection of very different areas, it's a long peninsula. It has, you know, some of its industry actually dated back to the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and a lot of it has disappeared. So there are some very, very underrepresented areas in higher education and also some very, uh, poor areas that require some support. And I've tried to translate that in a small way through the work that I did as Provost and earlier as Deputy Vice Chancellor of Education in terms of a primary and secondary education, uh, particularly in terms of working with this wonderful, uh, Ted Rag Morty Academy trust of over 14 schools and over 14,000 students in south. And, uh, working with them to effect change and to, uh, to set up the Southwest Institute of Technology, which has now, uh, will have the, uh, Southwest further education colleges and a couple of universities and great employers like the Met Office and Babcock working together to promote digital skills, tech skills, uh, and other kinds of skills for the region. It's fundamental actually, to be part of, uh, part of your place, and that's why universities all over the country are working with their communities on civic university agreements. That really comes across your enthusiasm for, for that. Janice, there, um, I, I'm sure I could ask lots more questions, but we probably do have to bring it to an end with one, one last question. I was curious what brings you, let's say, 80% of your joy as a leader? I think, I think that's very precise, isn't it? 80% of my joy as, as a leader. Um, I think when I can see things, uh, that are happening well and that are, um, helping people to have a better experience, I spent the last few years the, as the provost with, uh, working at, um, wellbeing inclusion and culture and thinking about how do we change things in the institution. And we've done that through, I hate the term through various committees, but there committees that work and people who have designated roles as leaders of wellbeing and culture. Seeing that go well I think has, you know, uh, has been a, a sort of joy for me. Um, and, and my other deep love is actually working with students. I just love listening to them, working with them, getting ideas from them. And, uh, we talked about students as, as, as partners, uh, and change agents. I think it, it's, it has been an absolute privilege to do that. Also, actually, it's looking for the fun and joy in being a senior leader. Actually. It's, it's hard yards a lot of the time, but actually it's the people that you can really have fun with and learning about, you know, their lives and things that, you know, the university may not be doing as well as it could do, uh, and what we might do about that. So I've got a lot of joy when I was processed, actually. And that's, I'm, I hope I'm continuing it now actually, in working with, with Chris and others through high features That Joy has definitely come across to me today. Jan. Janice, thank you so much for joining me. I've so many enjoyed our discussion, and I, I do hope our listeners have as well. I hope so too. Been a delight. Thank you.