#EdInfluence

S03 – E11 John Camp OBE & ASCL Conference 2024.

• Browne Jacobson • Season 3 • Episode 11

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Hear from John Camp OBE, President of the Association of School and College Leaders (ASCL) and CEO of the Compass Partnership of Schools, a charitable trust of twelve schools in Greenwich and Essex. 

In this episode, we also hear from other sector leaders from the floor of this year’s ASCL Conference:

They give their perspectives on what makes an effective leader, the qualities they see in children that they wish they had and share strategies for sustaining their energy levels as a leader. 

Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn.

Welcome to the latest episode of EdInfluence. I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson, and this episode is a special made up of two parts. The first part I'm delighted to be joined by John Camp, CEO of the Compass Partnership and president of the Association of School and College Leaders. In the second part, I then share with you some discussions with leaders at the Association of School and College Leaders annual Conference early this year in Liverpool from the conference floor. But first to John. So thank you, John, for joining me today. I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are as a leader. Unrecognized. Nice to see you today. yeah. Really good question. I've actually told this story quite a few times that, people have probably heard some of it before. but I think probably the leader I am now is because of, of my own education experience. I'm a sort of a child from what would now be deemed, disadvantaged family. and, well, growing up, we we you know, we didn't have a great deal of money. And, as a single parent, my mom was on a low income. So, it's fair to say that we struggled, at many times, but I was lucky to, to to be in education at a time when a number of policies that that sat around education contributed to my ability to be able to access education fully. So, you know, my family make good use of a school journey, grants, clothing grants, you know, free school meals, six, four maintenance grants, all of those, sort of additional interventions. That meant that I was able to access education. But actually another really crucial part, was the part played by teachers because of course, I could access that because I had the financial support. but I needed to know how to access that. Also, I needed to know what was important, and I needed to know what decisions I needed to make that were going to have a profound impact on my future. and there are a number of teachers that that had a profound impact on me. But most importantly was, my sixth form tutor who, oversaw, the whole process of applying to university and polytechnic at that time so that there were to to sort of forms that you had to fill in, you had to fill in an upper form. And the peak has form now, until she'd spoken to me about applying to university, I had never really thought about university. It wasn't a conversation that we had in our family. my mum, it didn't really, you know, clear with me that I was to stay on at sixth form and get A-levels because then that would give me access to to a management training program actually at Marks and Spencers, which she felt was, was the way I needed to go. so when my sixth form tune tutor asked me when I was thinking of applying, where was I going to apply was sort of a mystery to me. I'd never really had a conversation about university or polytechnic, and in fact, I didn't know the distinction between the two. So she sat me down and talked me through it. She talked about what those opportunities were. she talked about the differences between those organizations, and she talked about whether I'd be interested in continuing study. And of course, I love school. I was I was always love school and enough primary school, and I loved secondary school. and I loved learning. And I definitely, through my education, saw saw it as a liberator. For me. It was something that I felt, you know, I was I was good at I was successful at, and I knew that probably it would help me in the future, but I didn't quite know how profound that would be. So she sat me down. We we looked through, some of the options, and then I went home and spoke to my mum about him. But my mum, really wasn't happy because, you know, a low income family. What was important in our family is that as soon as you were able to go out and on a wage, that's what you did. So I had a Saturday job, and I had to even contribute to half of that to the family income, because it was important for us. Survival enabled, you know, us to, to have a reasonable standard of living. So she thought I was being lazy. She just thought I was looking for an extension to my education so that I didn't have to go out and earn. So she was really cross. so I went back the next day and I said to my tutor, it's not going to happen. I'm going to I'm going to complete my A-levels and go on to, the management training scheme, hopefully at Marks and Spencers. But she, she sat me down and said, well, I understand that. I know these things are difficult, but let's have a go at filling the forms out. You know, you just so that if you do decide to you can do it. So she sat me down and we looked through the options. I've been to visit. None. No university, no polytechnic. so I didn't even know what they they were like. I had no view on that. So she we we selected a couple. I filled out the forms. I said, look that they're there if you need them and, I'll fill them unbeknownst to me. And I don't know why she made this decision, but it was a very sort of insightful decision on her part. She sent those forms off, and the rest is history, really, because I then got offers, and that really was a pivotal, point in my life because I was then able to have a conversation with my mum about the fact that the data were potential places for me to go to, and that I'd really like to study, further. so actually, at that point, I think my mum's sort of calmed down a little bit. We had a conversation. I agreed that I would go to a London institution so that I could get a job, and in that way I could live at home, contribute to the household income. I would be able to do a degree. and that's exactly what I did. So actually, I went to Thames Polytechnic, had accepted a course there. studied sociology and social history, and I held down the job. and that was able to pay, you know, away it was able to pay my mum to contribute to the household income so that that really was pivotal to me. And as a leader that has stayed with me, it stayed with me because for me, what that that that teacher did through an act, I think of of insight, compassion, but ultimately relational leadership. She threw a conversation us through that interaction was able to shape my understanding of context, enable me to feel confident, to be able to embrace opportunities I was not overly aware of, and ultimately change the course, of life for me. And that's what took me into education because I came became really passionate about the about the the change that education can make. I saw a number of my peers, not do so well in education for a whole range of reasons, and I, I didn't want that to happen in the future. I could see that that made a difference to me. And that's underpinned my leadership, really. So as a leader, I'm very much focused, sort of relational. So relational leadership, servant leadership, type models. And I've always focused on leading through interaction and connection. As you know, I'm not a distant leader. I don't lead from the desk. I lead from the point at which you meet people and talk to them, but importantly, absolutely driven and centered on ensuring that we make a difference to those children from, you know, families that have been disadvantaged by the system. And I'm really careful. I never talk about disadvantaged families because everyone's context is personal to them. And I'm not here to judge personal context, but what I am here to try and do is really mitigate against some of those barriers that the system puts in in front of certain families and certain children. So I'm absolutely driven to, you know, to make a difference. And the last bit so in it is that, you know, knowledge is power. I know that's a cliche that that is often used, but to me knowledge was power. I didn't know about university, I didn't know about the opportunities on offer. And when I didn't know, I didn't know how to access it because I had no idea of how to fill a form out or to tick those boxes. that teacher, did that with me. She recognized that I needed that. And I think that's what good leadership is. It recognizes the strengths and the potential in everyone, and then it works with that person to enable them to access and make the most of that and use their individual talents to then thrive. Thanks, John. I can see a very impactful story for for you personally strikes me, looking back at that teacher, she, she saw you, and she was prepared to take a bit of a risk. Was she perhaps. I yeah, I think she may be. It was a calculated risk. Maybe she could see me, that she could see I needed that extra little, you know, that extra little thing that would enable me to be brave enough to front up the conversation with my mum and say, look, actually, this is important to me. and in doing that, I was then able to find the solution, ultimately to sort of satisfy both demands. Satisfy, you know, if I mean, my mum died last year, but if you spoke to mine, if you space my mum, she, she has no recollection of that. You know, she, she, she's very proud of what our children have achieved. and you know, she, she would not remember that at all. but is a very vivid memory of mine, because, it, you know, when you're in, when you're in a house that the struggles that has always struggled financially and you're aware that your mum is always balancing the demands of, of home and the family budget. Yep. You you've developed a deep sense of responsibility that you should not contribute to the stress of that situation, that you should always seek ways to enable that to be better and not to make it worse. so you can end up denying yourself the opportunities that you might want because actually, you need to be making decisions that, that help the family, over your own needs. And, and that's something. And that stays with me, actually, that's still, still very much part of me and who I am. but feeling that is my responsibility to sort things out, that when things go wrong, it's my responsibility to deal with them nicely. Me? If I was listening to you and I was wondering, fast forward many years, and then the various leadership roles you've had, how do you balance looking after yourself and your interests job, the organization interests and that sort of responsibility because it came through very clearly, that sort of one to help the family support your mum as well as sort of have your own education and embracing that as a leader. How have you juggled those those two positions when you want to support your team, other your schools and also making space for you? Yeah, I think I've probably got better at that over time. because it's always so. I know this isn't rational, but it's always quite selfish of me to think of me over the needs of others. and I think, you know, I feel leadership in schools, and I feel blessed and very lucky to be in the position I am in. And I, I've always thought, you know, absolutely loved being in schools. I think they're the, the best places to be, because they're dynamic, they're energetic. And, you know, you see young people who have, you know, their hopes for the future and you feel the world is in a really good place if they're going to embrace it. I think one of my weaknesses, and it is a weakness, actually, and I've talked a lot about it, is, that I, I worry too much and I worry about what's not happened, and I worry about what what I don't really have control of. because of that, really. I think inside me there's this voice that things need to be perfect, things need to work well, and if they don't, it's your responsibility. So I still struggle with that. but I think what it's made me, and I hope that if you were able to speak to people in my organization and leaders I work with, and I work with a fabulous team, and they're absolutely amazing, hopefully what they would say is that when things don't go right, and that is we know that often happens. I don't jump, I don't jump to judgment. I'm always looking at, okay, well, let's just sort this out because my first reaction is, I need to sort this out. And what I've had to practice over time is that it's not for me to sort this out. Always is for me to help others, to find the solution, to work through this. So I think naturally, my leadership style is quite collaborative. It's enabling. And ultimately, it just seeks to empower others to feel confident about working through, you know, the issues and, and the problems that they may encounter or the, you know, deliver on the passions and, and, and the drive that they are focusing on at the moment. So I think that that's sort of how it plays out in my leadership, you know, Steve Jobs talks he talked about the fact that you don't employ great people to tell them what to do. You employ great people, so they tell you what to do. I absolutely live by that. I think that is fundamentally the key to leading a complex organization that you could never hope, to have complete control of, and nor should you have the desire to either. It's around really building the conditions for brilliant people to do brilliant work, and to contribute to the tapestry of leadership that makes that organization the organization. It is. But it's still in my mind. Nick, is that finger that points at me when anything goes wrong. and it's the one that tells me it's my fault and I need to deal with it. But I've learned to manage that better. I hope that makes sense. But thank you, thank you, I so, as you know, this is, a two part special, so I thought I'd ask you a few of the questions I asked the delegates at your very enjoyable conference earlier this, this year. And the the first question, Jonas, and I appreciate this is getting out publicly. So there's only so much you can say, but what what's on your mind this week? What are the sorts of things that you're thinking about it? That's a good question. Said. If there's one thing on my mind this week, which is budgets, it's that time of year. Nick. so we've had our gag statements in the trust. We know that money that's coming in, we've had our reception number. You know, we know how many children we're getting into reception. We know what assumptions we need to base next year's budgets. so it's it's how we're going to make those budgets work in an environment. where the complexity of needs to grow in, in schools, the demands on schools are greater. The things that we, we are expected to do, are far more numerous. yeah. Actually, it feels like the resources each year just getting less and less. so we're going through that budgeting cycle, and that's what I'm working through. particularly over the past two weeks, we have a special school. Special school finance is really complex and incredibly tight. so that's been on my mind. I always like in the budget, the budget setting process to go on holiday when you're planning a holiday. And I always say to head teachers, you're going to plan to go to the mall days, you're then sort of after your first attempt, you may be sort of aiming for the Canary Islands, but in the end, you know, it's going to be a stay at home vacation and you're going to have to just shape up what sort of accommodation you can afford, because that's how the budget process seems to work. And it's trying to not dampen people's ambition and enthusiasm for what schools can deliver. but really understands the real risks that are present with, you know, working with limited resources and making that work so that we can still realize the ambition that we have for young people. So as someone sounds tricky, that that balancing the realism of the money you give a versus what you want to do for for your children and your schools and your staff. Yeah, yeah it is, it is tricky. And also, Nick, what's tricky is that, it's not just about tempering the amazing things we want to do. It's increasingly about tempering the basic things that we need to do. And it's how you make some of those difficult judgment calls about how you allocate resources and where you allocate it to, and as a trust, you know, hopefully we do that in the most equitable way possible, to make sure that we are affecting the needs of those most vulnerable young people. but it's not easy. but, you know, we do it because public servants, have a deep commitment and ambition to their communities, and they want to do the very best for them. So we always keep that in mind. and we, we do the best job possible. So when things get get tough, what sort of strategies do you use to give you the energy that you need to to battle on through, yeah, a really good question. So I used to well, my main strategy used to be to just not talk to anyone. I used to all again, it links to what I was saying before that sort of is my issue. I need to deal with it. So I used to always, often spend 2:00 in the morning really thinking through some of those difficult things that we encountered. but what I've got better at is sharing those things with my executive team almost immediately, because I've learned that actually, there is a lot of truth in the saying a problem and it's a problem shared, you know, problem halved, and that becomes manageable. And of course, it's arrogant of me to think that I'm the one with the answers and I'm the one to find the solutions. So I've just got really good, immediately sharing some of those difficulties with the executive team straight away so that we collectively problem solve and we deal with those really quickly. and that's made a huge difference. But it doesn't stop me worrying. Nick. I still worry about things a lot. too much really. and I think also it that I still have a tendency, to, to feel disappointed with myself if I don't think we've reached the right solution. and I think but, you know, I definitely have got better with that. I've got a lovely family. and I come home, and what I don't do, Nick ever, is talk about work at home, ever. and my wife and I don't talk about either of our work at home. So that gives us a space to just focus on family and the things that we do, and that that works really well for me. If you complete the following sentence, that effective leader is someone who understands the leader they need to be for the people they are leading. And how do you use your leadership to lift others up? Oh, that's a good question, Nick. I think I'm generally an enthusiastic, sort of upbeat person who always is reasonably positive. I will have I have my moments where I think, you know, I feel the world is ending and I'll sit there with, you know, my mic team and and sort of offload in that way. But actually, I'm very good at saying we can only focus on that. The variables that we have control of, let's not focus on the uncontrollable variables. Let's focus on what we have control of. So I think I'm probably good at motivating people to focus on the things that we can make a difference with, and something that I constantly talk to the team about. And in fact, my my whole trust and, probably most people you speak to would say this about me is I feel that good leaders are good storytellers. The story you tell about your organization, the narrative that you shape, that's the vision that guides the organization and helps people make sense of the part that they play in it. And I always liken it to traditional fairy, you know, traditional stories or stories that you have read to you when you were young and you wanted to hear those stories over and over again, even though you knew the ending, you took comfort from the predictability of that end because you'd learn to. That's I think that's what leaders do. They tell the story of their organization so frequently, so often, that there is a predictability to the direction, the culture and the ethos and the values of that organization. And I think that's something that I do all the time. I'm always repeating the values of the organization. I'm always telling the story of the things that we are aiming for. And I think what that enables us to do is ensure that people can see the part that they play in that story and actively contribute to the vision, of the organization. And I that's, that's what I think I do. and hopefully that's what's contributed to the success of the compass partnership. Storytelling has come up quite a lot with a number of my, my other other guests. so, well, quality do you see in your children that you wish you had? And good question. So I have three children and, the 17, 19 and 21 so that they're older. and I think I don't know how I've done it. but they, I'm quite risk averse. I think that links to my tendency to worry, to always look for the, the worst case scenario. Know what my that's my natural risk management process. I imagine things the worst I could be, and I'll work my way, but hopefully friends again, my children don't have that. They absolutely embrace everything that comes their way and quite probably risk embracing, and I can say that, that, I think that they have had opportunities much will they it's not that they've had more opportunities than me that they probably have by nature of the upbringing that they've had, but they see the opportunities in the way that I did. And and that's not just about, so then the, the nature of, of my upbringing, it's about me as a person as well. I would have avoided things that they don't avoid. and I think that will, that will serve them well. you know, they're much they definitely are, citizens of the world. You know, they they embrace the opportunity to go other places and, that they seek those opportunities and that particularly my oldest, I seek reasonably, reasonably unconventional know in my sort of terms in terms of how he sees his future work. And he's going to be someone who, you know, doesn't follow a linear route like me. You know, I left school, went to university, went straight into teaching, and so I've never really left education. To be fair, he wants lots of opportunities. You know, he and he wants those opportunities to be in different parts of the world. He calls himself, a digital nomad. And, and I think that that sort of reflects my children generally, actually, that they're braver than I am. Absolutely, definitely braver, though possibly, possibly length. Another question I asked your delegate was, what leadership superpower do you wish you had? That's good. I actually, I there's a thing that's running through this whole interview, isn't there? I wish I was better at making calculated risks. And actually, you know, I've been the. So I'm the founder and CEO of the compass partnership. So and I've been I've been the, the CEO I'm not at this is the end of my coming not to end my seven year, and I think whoever comes next, well, I think that next generation of, of CEOs of trusts will need to be much better than I am at those calculated risks to really realize the benefits of what that trust structure offers you. in terms of realizing, the opportunities out there that you can take, and I just know I'm not that person. And I've got people on my team that are and I've been very careful to make sure I surround myself with people that have complete different skill sets to me. but I think that that's the superpower I wish I had. I wish I, I was just more comfortable with some of that uncertainty. I'm not good with uncertainty in it. So you've mentioned that about, whoever follows you, whenever that that happens, thinking then about what you've you've learned along the way and the superpowers that you have, what what would the best advice be that you would give to a learning leader or to a successor to. so, gosh, that's a really good question. I think. That's I would say three things and always be humble. or I always assume, people will be able to do it better than I can and that drive that. So that drives me. And I think that will always mean that I'm looking to empower and enable, rather than direct and tell. So I think I and I think that's important because I think in an organization, like a trust, a trust of schools complex, you know, all of that interplay between school trust and all of the teams in the trust, I think it's important that as a leader, you are humble and you recognize the skills, and the, the talents of your team and, and you enable them to thrive. And you would you recognize that? That's really important. The second one, I think, is, to to be absolutely crystal clear and confident about the values that underpin the culture of your organization, and that has to be a consistent and diligent focus of yours. So I'm always focused on culture, always focused on ensuring that actions align with words. And I think that's important. And I think we neglect that at our peril. And I'm always sent people, cultures, what happens when you're not there and that which you walk past you condone. And I think that's fundamental. so I notice everything I comment on most things, and I will always have a feedback conversation with people about those things. I think that's really important. And then the third thing I think, which is probably the one I should have started with, this is the most important thing, which is, remember, we're here for children and we have to ensure that our decisions are made to improve outcomes for children. And of course, we have to ensure that we support our teams to be in the best place possible to meet those needs. But children are fundamental. and it's easy, I think, in a trust to become overly focused on some of the other things, you know, like the business type stuff at the expense sometimes of focusing on children. And again, in comes partnership. The children are fundamental to every decision we make. And if a decision we make is not going to improve the experience of children and their outcomes, then we're not going to make that decision. unfortunately, in after time. So I can probably only ask one, one last question. And that's because but my last question is what brings you joy as a leader? A large proportion of joy, 80%. Whatever you want to set out, what brings you joy? I I've so today I've been in I've been in one of our schools. That's what brings me joy. The, you know, the going into schools and seeing everything that schools do so brilliantly. they're full of laughter. they're full of energy. They, creative. They are. Right. and I, they fill me with hope. Always for the future. And I feel absolutely blessed to be able to do that, because if anything, you know, gets me down. I'm slightly worried about what's happening in the world at the moment or, you know, dwelling on particular things. I go into school and I absolutely feel confident that those young people will grow up to be adults that do brilliant things. And I feel that they, you know, they will be the remarkable leaders of the future that we need. I love going into schools. and that that's, you know, that's what what drives me. I don't have an office neck, literally, where I turn up, I find the table and that's where I will be some and almost always on the grand tour of the schools. because that's why I absolutely love. I like to see, that, you know, the, the impact of the work we're doing. And I see that best in, in the schools that that we are nurturing and that, you know, schools are brilliant places as a perfect place to, to draw our session today to a close. So thank you so much for joining me today, John, and thank you for sharing so candidly. as well. It's a pleasure. and now for part two. In some discussions from the conference floor at the ACL annual conference earlier this year. Welcome to the latest edition of that influence. I'm Nick McKenzie from Brown Jacobson, and today I'm chatting with leaders of the Association of School and College Leaders annual conference in Liverpool. Julie McCulloch, director of policy at the Association of School and College Leaders. What's on your mind this week? What's on my mind this week right now is where we're talking here at our school's annual conference, where we have about a thousand people working in schools and colleges across the UK who come together to listen to speakers, to network, to talk to us as their trade union about what they want us to do. Essentially, it's like lots of money. My name is Peter Kent. I'm a former president of school. I'm not one of our school's trustees. And I'm also, just finished being president of the International Confederation of Principals. What's on your mind this week? what's on my mind is the way in which our school has changed and developed in the ten years now since I was at school president. and I was reflecting when John Kamp gave a fantastic keynote to open the conference. But my final act as a school president was to bring through a rule change, but admitted primary members to at school. and I was thinking how positive that has been for your organization and how far we have traveled. And what a wonderful contribution colleagues like John made, summed up by what I thought was an absolutely first rate keynote from him. Hi, I'm Anacortes, I'm the school improvement director at Heart Academies Trust, which is a multi-academy trust based in Bedford. What is on your mind this week? So this week is International Women's Day, which is absolutely amazing. And it's wonderful to celebrate all the fantastic female leaders we have in our organization and across the education sector. My massive aim on International Women's Day is not just to think about my achievements, but how that will leave a better space for women coming through in future years. I always say think about it being I want to leave a ladder for all the women to keep climbing up that ladder, that we're going to smash that glass ceiling. Yeah. Hi, I'm Mark Knopfler, and I'm the head coach for the guy Gibson. What is on your mind this week? so particularly this week, I think, are on my mind. I've got the challenges of training workload. When you've come out of left field that you haven't necessarily budgeted for time, what time or energy wise? so, so, yeah, a little bit, but towards the end of my energy's, spent for this week. Yeah. I'm Emma Evolution. co-chief executive of the National Governance Association. What's on your mind this week? Oh, well, I suppose being here at the Asco, conference, I'm thinking about school leaders. And. Hi, as an organization, we can be as indispensable and supportive of school leaders, in shaping and supporting their boards as possible. and we're thinking a lot about workloads and school leader workload, as well as governing board workload and really trying to bring to life practical strategies that support, boards to be more effective and efficient, and equally not placing any increased burden on school leaders when things get tough for you, what sort of strategy for you use to give you the energy you need? A range of strategies, I guess. I mean, I, I always try to get a sensible balance between what I'm doing at work. what else is going on in the rest of the world? That's not always easy, know, particularly in my job, involves keeping up with the news as much as anything else. So it's quite hard to switch off. But yeah. So trying to trying to kind of get out walks, talk to my kids, they always keep you grounded that nice. yeah. Just trying to achieve some sort of balance when things get tough. What. So strategies do you use to give you the energy you need? I think that is a great question. perhaps there's no one strategy because it depends upon the situation. I think you do need a high degree of resilience in any leadership role, whether it's in education or any other walk of life. I've just come from a seminar on ethical leadership. I was one of the commissioners on the Ethical Leadership group, and that drew up, the report. And I think knowing that you are doing the right thing is absolutely key to it. I think it's much harder to keep going, if you don't know. But what you're doing is the right thing. Not the popular thing, but the right thing. and one thing I've always found, is where I've got myself into a bit of a mess is when I haven't been true to myself. It's a great bit of advice from Polonius and Hamlet, who says above all else to by your own self be true when things get tough. What sort of strategies do you use to give you the energy you need? I always have started now to stop and pause. I used to be my first ace of leadership. I have to solve every problem now, now, now. Whereas I've learned now. Actually the time to reflect on what you need to do is actually better than doing something straightaway. And when things get tough, what sort of strategies do you use to give you the energy you need? So I it's not a terribly revolutionary, thought at all. But actually, one of the things I've learned the hard way is actually how incredibly important doing the basics is when you're at risk or running low on energy. And and by that I mean eating well and regularly and drinking, plenty of fluid. sleep obviously helps as well, but actually, I don't think there's a great deal of, complexity in that. It's doing the basics to avoid that. And energy depletion, I think, is the word important. Yeah. And when things get tough, what sort of strategies do you use to give you the energy you need? well, I've got, fairly young family, so, and a dog, like, go out with them for a big walk. I do swimming, and that kind of is a bit therapeutic. It, I suppose, gives me space, a way where you're thinking about your breathing. You're just focused on that one thing. And treat yourself. I suppose. Could you complete the following sentence? And effectively, that is adaptable, I think leadership you have to you know, sometimes it's about being directive, sometimes it's about being collegiate. I think it's about judging what the situation is. how you respond to an effective leader is, I would say a moral leader, an ethical leader, and someone who builds trust and community and an effective leader is, I want to say, the cheesy answer, inspirational, but it probably wouldn't say it's somebody that is approachable and that people can talk to, and that can leave a leadership space better, that when they move on, then an effective leader is I mean, an effective leader is someone who has a real passion for what they do and wants to share that, with other people. So an effective leader is somebody who, I think inspires others and brings a team along with them to, sort of the same goal. I was going to say to bring about better outcomes for children and young people, which is kind of what we're in it for, right? How do you use your leadership to lift this up? I had something really interesting recently, actually, where they were somebody was delegation. and talking about how it's really easy to delegate the parts of your job that you don't like, and we tempting I'm sure we all do that to some extent. But actually, if you're looking to to think about succession planning and try to give opportunities to other people, for the future, actually do the part of being a delegate some of the stuff that you would really like to do, but you think it would be really beneficial for somebody else to do. So I try to do some of that. How do you use your leadership to lift others up? my leadership takes a variety of different roles. Now I'm working, quite a great deal, across borders, across jurisdictions. I think because I'm in slightly advanced in my leadership journey, I try and share experience, try and share positive experience, and above all, focus upon hope and positivity and the way in which leaders can bring hope and positivity to others. How do you use your leadership to lift others out? I like to think that whenever I go into our schools, I go in with a smile. I go in with the energy. I go with the positivity because teaching is tough and sometimes people just want to sit, offload, but they also don't need always advice and guidance. But they need a really safe space to share where they're going. And I think having that opportunity to staff is really important to how do you use your leadership to lift others up? So I'm not sure when I say I don't want to get into too much detail about the physical positioning of whether I'm lifting, lifting other people up, but I've always been really taken by the concept that a leader actually doesn't always lead from the front. Actually, sometimes they lead from behind by getting behind people and or almost pushing them rather than pulling them from the front. and that's not always the right thing to do, but I think it's something that can easily be overlooked and made for the leadership toolkit. So celebrate their successes and, work hard to appreciate the strengths that there are in the organization. both celebrate it internally, but like to shout about it outside as well. Obviously you sometimes have staff we want so keen as to to have that, but finding the way that somebody wants to be appreciated and kind of filling that space is probably what I do best. I would say. What quality do you see in your children that you wish you had? So I'll talk about my own children because I'm not school based. I've got about one teenager now, 120 year old. I think what I love about the way they engage with the world is they are they're incredibly thoughtful. they're incredibly committed to future. And so making the future as good and as fair as it can be for everybody, I think that's there's a really laudable qualities that actually I think this generation has it insight. What quality do you see in your children that you wish you had? I think their ability, to embrace new ideas and new changes, ideas that seem quite revolutionary to me, such as, for example, the use of all ten of artificial intelligence and the way it can be applied in education, and they just take in their stride and see it is exciting. So I think their mental agility and adaptability is something I wish I had. What quality do you see in your children you wish you had? So I have a I'll go my own child, not my the children we teach. I have a seven year old little girl that has such self-belief, such self-confidence that she can walk into a room and say, mummy, don't I look great today? And I just wish every young child, specially our young women, have that self-confidence throughout their lives. What quality do you see in your children you wish you had? Lots, many many, yeah. So I think I think the one I probably highlight is what I call bounce back ability. And I think that's slightly different from resilience. I think resilience is obviously very important, but I think young people, including my, my twin daughters who are 23, they do have this incredible ability on the whole to bounce back very quickly. So when something get difficult or, challenging to find their way back to where they were before and then set off again towards whatever target they're, they're taking themselves forward on. and that's something that I, I, I find myself quite envious of sometimes. What quality do you see in your children you wish you had? maybe they're a bit more fearless than me at that age. And, definitely kind of carefree, which means they sort of all about doing, what they want to do and sort of, I think without overthinking something less complicated, perhaps what leadership superpower might wish you had? I suspect this is not a unique answer, but I would say Hermione Granger time Turner, please. What leadership superpower do you wish you had? there rather large number of leadership superpowers, but I know, I haven't got, I think probably the one, I most admire, but, I think is missing is the ability not to be concerned by what others think or say about you. I think looking back sometimes, I was rather too bothered. I think I should have leant harder on that principle of do the right thing and just go with it. What leadership superpower do you wish you had? my leadership superpower would be to be able to instill that confidence in everybody. Day in, day out. What leadership superpower do you wish you had? Only the one I wish. There are many, many superpower that I wish I had. I think I think the most useful one would be if you can have found it a little bit scary, but I, I think being able to have a superpower where you could really understand without any doubt what makes a person tick would be invaluable. And I don't mean by that. I don't mean I'd like to be inside someone who can see what they really think. I think it's much more focused tonight, if very understanding, at a completely pure, authentic level. The things that really matter to them that will be very, very useful at a, at a later superpower. Very much so. What leadership superpower do you wish you had? I don't really know the answer to that question. That's probably too many. I think is sort of making people feel even more special and that they are really appreciated. So each of us comes to life and brings to any situation, stuff like the way that the world reacts to us and the way that we find ourselves in it. and I think everybody experiences some sort of adversity, and I try to work with children and young people on the staff team, actually, to translate whatever they think is perhaps the worst thing to make it actually be their biggest strength. So I kind of think that that is the superpower is just being able to translate a negative into a positive. Thank you for joining me. I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion we've had over the last couple of days and hope you have had take one final thought. I'd like to leave you with reflecting on key messages from the conference. Is thinking about your role in your organization? How do you bring optimism, hope to the people, to the teams that you lead?

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Nick MacKenzie

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