#EdInfluence
In his inimitable style, Nick unearths the secrets of good leadership from his guests.
Trusted by thousands of education providers across the country, Browne Jacobson is an award winning national law firm helping clients and partner organisations shape and influence education policy.
#EdInfluence
S03 – E12 Series 3 retrospective with Emma Hughes and Iain Blatherwick.
In this special retrospective episode, Nick is joined by fellow executive coaches Emma Hughes and Iain Blatherwick to reflect on the highlights, themes and ideas shared by guests throughout Series 3 of #EdInfluence.
Emma is a partner at Browne Jacobson and Head of HR Services, as well as being a Chartered Fellow of the CIPD and an executive coach. She has over 15 years’ experience in generalist HR in both the private sector and the public sector. Emma has worked as HR director and regional HR business partner for two large, national school trusts.
Iain was the Managing Partner at Browne Jacobson for 11 years and specialises in advising on governance and leadership issues, making use of the skills, insights and experience he's gained as a leader. Iain completed the Academy of Executive Coaching (AOEC) Practitioner Diploma course and is now a qualified coach accredited at Practitioner level by the European Mentoring and Coaching Council (EMCC).
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Welcome to the latest episode of EdInfluence. I'm Nick Mackenzie from Browne Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by my colleagues Emma Hughes. Hi, Emma. Hi Nick And Iain Blatherwick. Hi Iain. Hi. As this is the last in the series of EdInfluence, we're taking a slightly different approach. I've had lots of great discussions with guests over the series. So today, Emma, Iain and me are going to be pulling out a few themes that struck us as we were going through the series. Emma, I think you are going to kick us off, and you wanted to talk about the importance of life moments. Yeah. I think what really became apparent to me, whilst listening, was that first question that you asked about, tell me a story and just how important those stories were to those individuals and how clearly those stories showed up sometimes throughout that person's career. So, and for example, I was really struck by the story that she told about being involved, so involved with her parents butchers shop in Manchester and how she was just exposed to their very hard work, servitude she talks about and then she talks later on about how her golden thread in her leadership is that she has to be involved in an organisation where she can make a difference beyond just making money. And she talks about being an entrepreneurial public servant, and you can just see how that was shaped at a young age with her parents and then if, if I think about John Murphy, for example, John found his purpose of being in education from a young age and feeling lost in the classroom, lost in school. And that really drove his passion to make sure that children are not lost. That every child matters, every child can and he talks about how, nobody asked him, how are you, John? How are you coping? He talks about how he, he just wasn't delivering, achieving to the same level as his siblings and yet nobody really sat down and said, what's going on with you, John? And I think that that has driven him in, in a lot of ways. John's story in particular is one of, I guess, a realisation later in his career that some of that stuff from a young age probably drove some unhealthy leadership habits and having to prove himself. He talks about being involved in marathons and black belts and constantly having to prove and be a high achiever, likely coming from a place as a child of not quite hitting the mark. Um, and then of course, he, he then goes to take some time to work on that and work on himself. And what then comes outta that is this beautiful story of, um, letting that go, understanding himself better as a leader, um, being more content with himself. And now he realizes that really leadership is about driving, enabling, not doing. Um, and that's bettered his relationship with leaders that he's working with, including the board. Um, so I don't know whether you want to chip in there, Ian, did you see anything as well from the importance of life moments? Yeah. Uh, before that, a theme that we'll probably come back to is how powerful the various people told these stories and talk with, you know, storytelling as a part of leadership is key. Um, with Dan Kane, the, the story he told was, um, I think it was his first child, Oliver was seriously ill after he was born. And he told the story of the care and compassion of the consultant who talked them through the operation that was gonna happen. Um, and, and just the way he explained it, the confidence he gave them, that their son was in safe hands, and then I think sort of apologized for having to call the meeting to a halt.'cause he was gonna have to go and save another child's life. And I think, I think at a time when, for, for Dan and his partner, you know, the most serious position, they found themselves the care and compassion, but also the, the reassurance that they were given just from that one meeting has then played out how he wants to be as a leader and, and sort of underpins the whole o shaped philosophy that they're pushing forward. That in all of these roles, we have to care, we have to have compassion, we have to understand the audience that we're talking to. So in his case, very much a life moment. Um, with Edward Peck, I mean, it's interesting the different phases of people's life. They talk about these things with Edward, it's sort of early career. I think he actually describes 'em as Victorian as asylum, is that he was working at the time. But that, you know, that role within the mental health system and understanding how it works and fighting for people at that point to help improve their life was clearly made a big impact on him. Now he's clearly working in that, in, in an organization where he is helping students better themselves, but I think his early experiences in working in that environment really gave him a view on how the part that he wanted to play and the part he wanted to help people and improving their lives. So yeah, storytelling, but really powerful moments, either personal or early in the career were really key. Yeah, the v the vivid nature of the memories I think really struck me. And interestingly, the one recently with John Camp, he even acknowledged that his mother might have a different memory of it. I, I was really taken by that.'cause it almost doesn't matter what other people's memories are, it's an important memory for you that drives how you show up as a leader. It's really relevant and really important. So has it impacted on you when you think of either of your work or yourselves in terms of when you were listening to that? Was there any reflections? No, I was on, on the one from John. I wondered now it was a very brave teacher that sent in that statement anyway, and I wondered whether in this day and age, someone would still feel empowered to do that. So I know that wasn't the question you just asked me, but that was my reflection on hearing that story. Um, it does reflect, make you reflect on your own approaches to things and what's influenced, I know you haven't asked me to tell my story, but it's, my dad was a lawyer, my mom was a relate counselor. And it's interesting to me to reflect that in my leadership, I was maybe more influenced by my mum ultimately than by my dad in terms of how she dealt with people in that role. Yeah, I think with, um, if I think about Be's story, um, Bex talks about being the, the eldest out of her siblings. She's at boarding school, her dad was in the Navy, so she was in boarding school from the age of eight. She talks about how she always bought the tickets. She had this sense of, I need to look after my siblings. She took the lead. There was no doubt about it. She said, I was definitely the person that took the lead. Um, and, um, I think what be's um, the, the thing that struck me about Bey's story is that it was clear that she developed a huge amount of resourcefulness in herself at a young age, um, and resilience. And so now she talks about she aims high, she takes the hard path, she takes the challenges, um, willingly. And she says sometimes those challenges almost seem insurmountable, but, um, as long as she has hope and optimism, and I think the abundance of this resourcefulness with within her that was developed at this young age has really helped her to be successful. And I think some, I I reflect on that, um, as a leader. Um, the, the older sibling wanting to look out for my younger sister always took the lead. Um, and I think I probably also developed that sense of resourcefulness and resilience at a young age to just get on with it and get through find solutions. Um, I think a lot of people can relate to that. One of the things I think I've reflected in conversations with my, my children from time to time, and it particularly came up I think when there was more time to speak through the pandemic, when I realized things that I was doing in and around their lives that they commented on, but they hadn't commented on at the time had an impact on how they see, see the world. I'm just wondering if we are on the theme of life moments, Emma, sort of how intentional we can be to help others when we were encountering a situation where we know something could be an important life moment. There's lots of those examples we had from our guests. They just happened, didn't they? They were. But do you think we can be intentional to help others as leaders with them on important life moments and really sort of burn into the ruter of the memory? I think, um, if I think about Anne, Anne talks about how she wasn't really surrounded by great leaders or good leaders. There was a lot of poor leadership. And so she carved out her own version of what she thought made a good leader. She talks about it just for you. And I love that. And I, she also talks about leadership training. But when you go on leadership training courses, if it doesn't connect to who you are as leader, it's just not gonna work for you. So I think the importance of life moments, if you are an individual that's sort of bereft of great leaders around you, that actually it's quite a sad story. I think it's about encouraging that person to be, to take the time to find out who they are as a leader, what's important to them, what their strengths are, so that they can use that as the catalyst to move them forward and carve their own journey out. Who are you as a leader? For me, um, trust as a leader is absolutely key. So I think therefore take asking someone who did, who is someone that you've really trusted, or in Dan's case, he absolutely felt that they were in safe hands there. So exploring what it was about that person that made you trust them, what was it that, in that relationship or in that moment that really created that? Because I think you can learn from that as a leader, because for a leader to be trusted for me is absolutely key. So exploring the people that you really had that relationship of trust with, why did that particularly work? And seeing what you can learn from that and how you act as a leader. Hmm. I loved, um, and just be you, that's one of, that's probably the thing that when I think of the episode, that's the thing that comes up for me. And there's many things in life. It's incredibly simple. I mean, we, we can only be ourselves surely, but actually to be authentically you, I think is something you can only see as you get more confident. Um, as a leader. I also, I know it's not strictly life moments, but I also loved the story she gave when she was chair of the scalps about the, the volunteering day where the CEO had first pitched it as part of one of the queen's jubilees knock back didn't go anywhere. And she was like, just hold onto that one day. That is a brilliant idea and it'll work. And then sure enough was a major part of the, the king's coronation. So that piece on, on timing and holding onto things was something else that I remembered from, from that one. Ian, I, I think you wanted to talk about non-traditional leadership or something that when you were listening to some of the episodes came up for you. Yeah, well actually just chimes into what you've said about being yourself. Um, I, I coach quite a lot of people who've just been appointed to a new role to the exec and they often seem to come thinking that they somehow suddenly need to be something else. They've got this view on what a leader is, they suddenly feel a bit of imposter syndrome, they suddenly think they're gonna have to be a bit more directional and so on. Um, and therefore it's always fascinated me, you know, that, that, that maybe books and hopefully slightly more historic books have these views of what a leader should be. But actually, and from so many of the, the podcasts that you've done, not many of those people fit within that mold. So it's really exploring what the books don't say anymore. Um, and there's a, there's a quote that Edward Peck uses in one of those around, um, doing nothing is doing something. I've always felt that there's an undue pressure on people to make quick decisions, to be decisive as held up as one of those characteristics that, that a leader should have. Um, and I've always had the view that, uh, uh, the rights decision is better than a quick decision. So I liked that that concept of, of doing nothing is doing something, um, to try and, I mean, it goes both ways. And I can come back to an example, but to try and take some of the pressure off you as a leader, you know, people might be wanting something to happen, but sometimes you don't have all of the information. Sometimes you might need to speak to more people just to make sure that you are making the right decision. Um, and sometimes actually you can reassure people in that we don't need to panic, we just need to make sure that we have got all of the facts in front of us to make sure that we're making the right decision. So, um, that can be quite influential. It can be quite reassuring, but for me it, it, it steps away from that traditional leadership model. I've gotta be decisive, gotta move on, gotta make sure everyone's clear what we do. Um, clearly that can't turn into procrastination. Um, I think there was a, another quote, I think it was from, um, from John where he said that, which you walk past, you condone, which really hit powerful.'cause there are times as a leader, where do you spot something and you actually think maybe I haven't quite got the energy to deal with it now. And so there, there, there, there are those moments as well. Again, doing nothing is doing something there because doing nothing is condoning. So you have to look at the right balance. But for me, you know, around decision making, making the right decision is so much more important than, than quick decisions. There's a, a real thing I think about pace and feeling that you have to move at pace. So I do like this, this theme, Ian, one of the, I remember one of the things that really struck me from the conversation I had with Fiona, which was actually the first episode, was she, she said something like, Nick, look for the gaps. Sometimes there's more in the gaps than there's what's said and done. And if you're moving at pace, there is no real gap to look for. So, um, but I, I get what you say as well, you can't procrastinate too much, but creating a bit of space, um, to be, I suppose, intentional and deliberate about what you're doing rather than, than gut. But that must be tricky. I mean, you've got experience of of leading a, you know, a national law firm in finding that balance between pace making decisions, not having all the perfect amount of information, I imagine is probably wisdom of Solomon. Yeah, it's interesting the, I think sometimes I was criticized as being overly consultative, but for me that was actually me just taking it, not not being arrogant to think that I had the right answer. That was not just me consulting for the sake of consulting. It was me making sure I'd spoken to people whose views I valued, whose views I respected, who are gonna have to follow me in whatever decision I take to make sure I was taking the right decision. So I think that can be a, a pressure again there to say, why are you taking so long? Why are you talking to people? But for me, that is still again, about making the right decision, not around making a quick decision. But yeah, not everyone will like it. And I mean, there's a lot of science out there about group decision making and if you are a leader and you speak first, then you've influenced the whole and you lose all the benefit from the diversity, the cognitive diversity of the group.'cause you've just created a bias right at the the start there. What were your reflections on that? Yeah, I think for me the, the listening to the podcast, I think a a lot of, um, the leaders are talking about needing space, surrounding yourself with people that keep you honest, um, um, assuming that you are going, that you're not gonna be right. Um, and really sort of leaning on people to, um, um, count, um, course correct and um, point out where perhaps you're not going in the right way. And I think in, in that is consultation, consultation with lots of people, um, gathering diverse views. I think he's just so important because what comes outta that is invariably a better decision than the one if you'd just taken the, taken the decision quickly. the other thing that I think is really good was, John on his journey, feeling that actually I don't need to know it all. I don't need to have all the answers. I don't need to go into the boardroom and say, this is it Bosch done. I've done all of it, done all the thinking, it's all there because otherwise what's the point in the board? So instead going in and saying, you know, I've started to create this, I'm struggling with it a little bit. What do you think what you end up with is a co-created strategy that everybody buys into, um, real shared vision, shared purpose, which is what we should be aiming for in governance. Um, but the board feel really connected, then connected and uh, to the purpose. So there's, there's so much value in doing that. I think, And underpinning this for me, listening, if I put something in a new leadership book, the power of listening, the, the impact of someone really being listened to, if we come back to the trust, which we've talked around earlier, the other benefit of consultation is that as long as you're doing it seriously and you are genuinely listening to what someone says, you are helping build that relationship of trust. Um, Julian talks about his time as a, as a leader in the NHS and he talks about big eyes, big ears, small mouth, you know, and just not, uh, partly as a reminder to yourself, but partly also to not feel that pressure to have an opinion on something. Partly it is just listen to the people who are closer to the issue. Listen to the people whose views you respect. I like that phrase. Big eyes, big ears, small mouth. So when, when you talk about non-traditional leadership, uh, are you really just challenging the, perhaps the stereotypes of the when, so you say lead or what people think of? Yes, definitely. But it surprises me how many people come to my coaching suddenly thinking they have to be that stereotype.'cause it feels like we have moved on from that. And therefore, and, and it doesn't take too long to point out to someone, look, you've been promoted to this position or appointed to position because someone believes in you how you are. So why do you suddenly think you need to be someone else? Um, and for me, leadership is much more around influence. You know, if you're sat around a board table, work out who is actually influencing the direction of the meeting is often isn't the person that is speaking the most or the loudest often is someone quietly maneuvering how decisions get taken. So for me, you know, moving people away from those stereotypes, I mean it's reassuring to people that they haven't suddenly got to be something that, that they aren't. Um, and looking at some of these, uh, these attributes like that that create the trust, that create that followership and, and for me listening is a, is a key one. So are there other stereotypes you, you would pull out Ian, either from what you've heard on the podcast or your own experience or the own work you do? Are there other Yeah. Leadership stereotypes that you put out for particular? Well it is that a slightly heroic figure, isn't it, that is out there at the front telling everyone what they need to do, you know, is is two steps ahead of the game. But I mean whether that, whether that leader ever really existed, but it doesn't take too long to pull that apart. So, and then there are lots of attributes that go around with that, aren't they? We've talked about being, being decisive, being, you know, they feeling like you are absolutely in control, but which lead into thinking, well I think they're gonna be in control of everything. So that's that, that's slightly superhero. And that doesn't mean there aren't moments when you have gotta make quick decisions. But I wouldn't want that to be the doll fault file, the default position that you've gotta do that every, every time. For me, I think one of the key themes that really shone through was about lifelong learning. And I think if you are a superhero leader where you think you need to know everything, that you can't be curious, you can't ask that. You need to have all the answers. How are you learning? How are you adjusting your decisions, your style? How are you quietly influencing if you are just constantly leading the pack, leading the way? I know. Um, and I think when I was listening, you know, certainly from when I was listening to Anne, it was very clear that Anne has had a commitment to lifelong learning from a young age. And she just talks so brilliantly about how that shown up for her throughout her career. Um, and she really knows who she is as a leader. And I think how do you take the time? How do you get the space? And Becks talks about the space in the agency for head teachers for example. How do you get that space and time and that agency if you are not coming from a place of I need to ask, I need to be curious, um, I need good questions. I think it's a challenge for new leaders, well, particularly as well, depending on how they were appointed. Maybe they were a slightly surprise candidate. Maybe they've been promoted early, maybe they don't know the organization. And therefore that pressure to feel, you've got to prove yourself that pressure early on to think, well suddenly you are responsible for everything. So if I'm responsible for everything, I need to control everything. It's quite, it is quite difficult in, in a time when it is really important to help people in that role to sort of ease that tension that can, can create, it's quite a natural human reaction, isn't it? If suddenly you are the leader of whatever organization to think, crikey, that's quite a responsibility. I need to understand everything. I need to be able to answer everything. So yeah, it is a difficult balance. I I wanted to, um, bring up human connection and belonging and there was, um, there was two, two instances which I think really stood out for me when I was chatting to Catherine Baker in that episode. She gives a really interesting example'cause we'd had a long conversation about belonging and I said, where, where did the penny drop for you in terms of this was really worth investing in? And she talked about when they were pitching for work as part of the training program her organization was doing for a large bank, they were working with, uh, a division over in India and they were on the initial call to plan. And I think we could all relate to the sheets. She knew what she needed to do, get out. We had about an hour on the call, limited amount of time, knew what they needed to do in that first call. And the lead from the client side was that, look, I'd like first to introduce themselves before we get into the meeting. And she said, I'd like to role model what I'd like everybody to talk about. And then she took three or four minutes to tell everybody about herself some of the things going on. And I think the initial reaction Catherine was saying, as bloody seven of us on this call, this is gonna take quite a while, settled into it though. And it was a reflection in terms of back on the time spent then was, was not wasted at all. That old saying of, uh, my dad always says to me, time pon spending recon is rarely wasted, but that time to get to know each other's humans really set themselves up for success for that engagement. They won the work, the project went well. And I know that is quite a compelling story. We've already mentioned it in this discussion about the feeling of having to move at pace. I mean, we all know as coaches, how many times do people say they haven't got enough time and you're just thinking, well, we've all got the same amount of time. But that feeling of pace just adds to it. That was one story. But then she also gave, and this really I thought was really interesting. She gave an, uh, a story from uh, a lady called Alex Dunson who was the leading, um, goal scorer, uh, at the Rio Olympics in 2016. And she was part of the, the Great Britain team had won gold. Um, that was the third Olympics. So third attempt to win gold, they'd won bronze four years earlier in in London. And um, so when they finally got to that elusive gold medal, the pinnacle of what she'd been working with for years upon years, and she was a top goal scorer and what she said after winning that gold medal, it's not the winning, it's how you win, the people you win with the group of people you are connected to. That is really powerful when you're thinking about someone that is an elite athlete. They are that figurehead of leading the line for the team, knocking the goals in. And even in that moment of right after that, reaching that pinnacle, she was connecting it back to the team connection. And that was doing it with the people around her. I found that really, really powerful example of why it is worth all of us spending that time, whether it's in business or in sport or indeed would probably find this a lot easier. Our families, you know, that human connection is really, really powerful. Does that resonate with, with both of you? Yeah. Um, be, well, Beck's also talks about this, Beck talks about how she's formed a new exec team and she talks about the importance of spending time together, really, um, collaborating. She talks about, um, they spend three outta five days together. If it was up to her, it'd be even more. Um, and I resonate that with that. Um, I, I lead a team that's all over the country similar to Beck. Um, but I understand the importance of us coming together as groups, certainly as, um, a leadership team talking about what we are doing, are we laser focus. I don't think you get that laser focus if all you are doing is connecting over teams and telephone calls I think is really important that you find that it's not just about the connectedness, it's about the belonging and the purpose gives you that sense of belonging. I think it's that key thing, isn't it purpose?'cause if you just have a target that is a goal that is a very, or one of a better phrase, a transactional goal, quite hard to connect that across humans. But when there is a sort of shared mission and it is your collective mission to do something, I think it's a lot easier to feel that strength in. Yeah, there were two that stuck out for me. Um, Dan Kane's example, this, it was maybe similar to Catherine's, but he, um, when, when started off a process in their team meetings where he asked each of the team to produce what they called their life on a page. And then they had a team meeting where everyone talked through, you know, I guess within life on a page, you've gotta pick out your key moments. But they had a session where all the team talked through their life on the page. And, and what it helped 'em do was to discover those connections. They didn't know that they had either volunteering or connections at a charity or some club that kids were involved in. And it just helped create more of a basis for them to work together as a team and often on things that were not work related. So an exercise now that they run out everyone when someone new joins the team and he says it might feel that it's a bit repetitive 'cause most of the people on that call or in that meeting have already heard each other. But he says it's amazing a the new connections you build with the person that's joined the team, but sometimes they are spotting new connections between each other anyway. So looking at how they create that sense of belonging as a, as a team through that process. And then the one with Edward Peck, it, it, it's slightly different, but you asked him a question about leading from a distance and you know, not Trent University, a massive organization, huge number of people. Um, and he, he tries to be visible and in try in being visible, he talks about various different aspects of his life. He talks about, um, his granddaughter, he talks about the farm and the tracks that he's got. He talks about his love of Everton Football Club and the advantage of all of these things that if he then bumps into someone in the corridor, he's given them a hook to have a conversation with, they'll ask him about the, you know, that within that there's probably something for everyone that they can relate to. So they might ask about the farm, they might ask about the granddaughter, they might give him stick about Everton, but it is all around what he's doing is giving these hawks for people to build that connection on. And then that helps build relationships so that people do feel a part of something. So yeah, both of those hit home with me are examples of how you really start to make people feel they're part of something together. I think John also talks about vulnerability. So he talks about how um, when he showed his own vulnerability and spoke his about his own vulnerability, um, leaders came forward and um, said to him, I now feel able to be vulnerable myself. And it created this sense of connection, um, between him and other leaders. And I guess it come, it may have caused a ripple effect. I think some of these things do, don't they? It causes a ripple effect. And I think as a leader it's so important that you start those ripples because you need to model those, those things that are so very important, especially with organizations that are vast and complex and like multi academy trusts are where John, where John is. Um, I think that really resonated the importance of leaders really, I guess it's knowing who they are, but then knowing what's important, um, for leaders to have the space and the agency to make the right decision. Um, and I guess if, if you are not feeling able to be vulnerable, then you are not necessarily going to feel as unable to go out and seek counsel and say, I'm not sure I've got this right. What do you think? Which is, you know, Anne was so clear that that's something that's important. John has said the same. And I think Beck's too, and I'm sure the same with others. I think for me that comes back to those non-traditional leadership attributes. Yeah. Historically as a leader you probably weren't meant to show any kind of vulnerability, were you meant to be there bulletproof and everything. Um, and for me it's so important. I, if you look at politicians, I worry about the standard that we hold them to, you know, any mistake by a politician, any suggestion that they're not on top of the numbers, any suggestion that they might have got something wrong. And, you know, they're effectively sort of hounded for having done that. Whereas I think in our world of leadership, we have all moved on. I think it would be much healthier if we didn't. I don't want my politicians to be able to remember every stat or fact or figure. I want 'em to be the people who will find the right answer. And again, I think it's key, isn't it? It's, it's not, we don't need people to be perfect, But we need people to listen and to learn, don't we? I think psychological safety, you know, it's so important to organizational culture. You've gotta be able to fail, you've gotta be able to make decision, you know, the wrong decision. You've gotta be able to learn from that. Um, we can't all be perfect. So on that Emma, that that brings something that really, there's a number of things because you're getting into an area of this that I think I wanted to do because belonging we all get the sort of the overarching principle, but getting under the skin of it, which we are there a bit. Um, Fiona, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read her words actually.'cause Fiona said it far better than I, I could paraphrase. And it's exactly on the psychological safety she says, but as the leader, you have to take the responsibility. If that we go with an idea, then I have to take that responsibility. It doesn't matter whose idea it is, the responsibility lies with me. If that does not work. And if it does work, we all share it. If it doesn't work, I wear it. And that's the difference. I really say to people, we'll try that. I've got you. We're okay, we'll give that a go. And I really do mean when I say, I've got you, I've got your back, we're all gonna do this together and if it doesn't turn out, then I'll wear the fallout. And I think that really sums up well to create, I suppose when you think about how can you start to create that psychological, um, safety. The other thing as well is Catherine talks about, because I asked Catherine about courage and she pulled out the piece about the courage of often gets overlooked, which is courage to admit when you're wrong and to change your mind. And that being vital, um, because yeah, courage can bring up that sort of, uh, warrior-like certainty. And clearly that is, that is important. But that open-minded listening, learning, being prepared to possibly look a bit stupid and say, do you know what? I was wrong or you've convinced me otherwise. The situation's changed, I thought was really powerful point for her to, to make. And but on that same, same piece, Janice Kay was talking about a leader she admired and her vice chancellor. And she saying he particularly conveyed that he trusted you and he believed in you, and that when he actually gave the delegation, you actually had the freedom to act and you were allowed to get on and act. He'd be there and support you, but you wouldn't have to be micromanaged or constantly reporting back. Um, he would just wanna know occasionally coming back and triangulate. I thought those were really, really interesting. And I think what I'm hearing there just is the point that you made, um, earlier about trust and the importance of trust because I would imagine that there is a high level of trust there in those relationships for that to happen. Absolutely. So we've got about the stand to come towards the end, but I wanted to just bring up one scene before I'm afraid I'm not gonna let you both get away without question specifically, um, as my guests. But before I do, Ian, you mentioned this right at, at the beginning, but this is something that came clearer to me as I was going through the, the series. So you've listened to the series, you you might know some questions repeat or some start to come up because those questions are coming up because I'm starting to have conversations and spot themes. And one of the themes that really struck me was storytelling. And by the time I was asking people about storytelling at the end, the, you know, the response was pretty instantaneous. You have 100% right. So storytelling as a leader, I think there are so many attributes to it. Um, I think the ability to tell a good story shows you as a person first and foremost for me. And it can have the vulnerabilities in it, it can have the life moments in it. I think people find storytelling engaging. So you're starting to bring people with you. Um, as long as the story's authentic, you are building trust. Again, this comes back to be your, you have to be yourself in that story. People can tell if you are telling something that you don't believe in. Um, and I think with all of those things brought together with a good story, you are, you are creating that sense of belonging. You're creating a team that wants to work with you and feels part of an organization that you'd be proud to be part of. And you'd, you'd, you'd want to help the organization do better. It probably more I feel, feel like I've under sold it. It feels more powerful than that. But I think the ability of someone to pick a moment, to tell a story, to make it relevant for where people are and to help the organization push on is key. I I think there's a difference between, there are some great speakers out there. So this is, this for me is different from the people who are great speakers. You know, you don't have to be the best teacher to get someone brought into you as a, you know, to understand the story that you're telling and for that to be important. So, um, I think for me it's not suddenly becoming some your Chilean orator. It is around something that is true. And I think if it's something that means something to you and resonates, that's what comes through rather than, you know, the delivery. Yeah, I'd agree with that. And I think when it, it, I'm just thinking about when you are in the presence of listening to somebody tell a story, um, on some level, if it's authentic, it's likely that you will find connection to it. It's not your story. Mm-Hmm. It's their story. But invariably people will often sit there and say, yeah, I, I, I understand that I've kind of been there a little bit. And there is so much more opportunity then to take learning from it than just somebody lecturing about how something should be. So our time really now is very nearly up. So I wanted to, to ask you both a question. And the question I wanted to ask you is, um, what quality do you see in your children that you wish you had and who wants to go first? I've got, I'm gonna give two answers, so I'm gonna cheat.'cause one theme that curiosity I think is really important in a leader and kids tend to have curiosity in space. I don't think I'm too bad into, in being curiosity and that there's a balance between, you don't want leaders to be restless, but understanding how things work, understanding how things could work better, understanding about how the future is. I think if you are too, um, comfortable as a leader, then that isn't a good place to be. So I, I think curiosity in kids, and I think that is something, I mean, I, I talk about it in terms of all levels. If any organization wants to have the best workforce for the future, and it can. And I think if you are recruiting people who curious about the world that works, I think you're, you're going a long way to, towards having the right thing. I guess the thing I'm most envious has, but maybe this is more about ages, kids' ability just to soak up all information that is there and to remember it. But that may be something more to do with my age than my skills as a leader in the past. Well, I, I, I would absolutely connect to that, that latter point. It's, it's also, so for me it would be tenacity. It's not to say that the tenacity isn't there, but it's, you know, I watch my 10-year-old daughter, nothing knocks her back. Nothing at all. She, when she's playing sports, she gets knocked down, she gets back up, you know, if she's got a struggle at school, she'll come home, she'll talk about it, she'll find, I can see it's a challenge for her, but it's not knocking her down. If anything, it's just inspiring her to keep going and prove it. Um, yeah, I think, I think kids, just a lot of kids, um, I dunno, I like the fact that they just feel unburdened sometimes of not every child, but I think unburdened by what could be, um, is just really awesome. Creativity and tenacity. Great answers. Um, so Ian, Emma, thank you very much for joining me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. I hope our, our listeners have as well. I personally, I think it's been a great way to wrap up the series loads of great content for us to pick out. And unfortunately we couldn't pull out all of the themes that I know fascinated us over the series. Um, I mean, there've been a planning for the next series, which is really, really exciting. And I hope, uh, you tune in when we launch that after the summer. Thank you. Thanks Nick.
