#EdInfluence
In his inimitable style, Nick unearths the secrets of good leadership from his guests.
Trusted by thousands of education providers across the country, Browne Jacobson is an award winning national law firm helping clients and partner organisations shape and influence education policy.
#EdInfluence
S04 – E01 with Cathie Paine
Cathie Paine is the Chief Executive Officer of REAch2 Academy Trust.
As CEO of REAch2, Cathie’s vision is the belief that school leadership at its heart is about transforming lives. Cathie joined REAch2 at the end of 2012 when there were only four schools in the Trust, but her headship career spanned 15 years across schools in a variety of challenging circumstances.
Ever since Catherine's first headship taking a socially deprived school from 'special measures' to 'Good' in just four terms, Cathie's passion is clear. She's committed to enabling children to flourish in an environment of outstanding practice.
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Nick: Welcome to the latest episode of EdInfluence. I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Cathie Paine, CEO of Reach2 Academy Trust. Thank you, Cathie, for joining me today. I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are.
Cathie: Thank you for inviting me to be here, Nick. I’ve wanted to work with children for a really long time. Interestingly, there is a story that connects to what I’ve gone on to do with my life, which is to be responsible for more and more children of primary age as I’ve gone through my career.
It goes back to when I was at primary school. We moved from the south of England to rural Lincolnshire in the late 70s, early 80s. I was in an assembly at my new primary school. I had just joined in year six, and it was one of those fussy mornings where there was a lot of chit-chat as the classes filed in, and we weren’t quiet enough for the head teacher’s liking.
He really did shout a lot. I remember him being a big shouter, when he was shouting about trying to get everyone to quieten down, but the school was not very responsive. I was quite a timid, well-behaved child, coming from a really happy and well-functioning family.
So, if I was told to be quiet, I generally was. But there wasn’t the response he was looking for. He seized a boy from the front row, among the youngest in the school. This boy, who came from quite a poor family in the village, was one of about five siblings.
And, it was a days before school uniform was compulsory. So there wasn't equity in what people were wearing. He looked a bit dishevelled. I don’t know if he was particularly noisy that day or if he was just singled out because he was vulnerable. But I remember the head teacher grabbing him out of the line.
And I've never seen anything like this in my previous school. And he started to, wallop this child on the back side, and he was sort of swinging by his collar as he was held by the head teacher with one hand and walloped with the other hand. And clearly this was not this wasn't uncommon because what my class of year six he started to do was they started to count quietly as the boy was walloped so I could just hear this one, two, three and it got to 27 and I could feel myself, nearly bursting with the sort of, I felt humiliation that I was keeping quiet on.
My cheeks were burning. I just wanted to shout to to for it to stop. I'd never seen anything like it. And no words came out of my mouth so I didn't shout. And I think about 30. The walloping stopped. But I can remember a very, very clear. It was like the voice in my head was so loud.
That said, when I'm a head teacher, I'm going to be really kind to children. And it was in that moment that I knew what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. There's a lovely little end to that story, which is the school where this all took place. I ended up being the head teacher of.
I got an early placement there and ended up back in that same hall decades later. I told the staff that story on my first inset day and said, “We’re here to do good things for children.” So, yes, it’s an awful story, but we don’t live in those times anymore. And I know I’ve gone on to be good to children.
Nick: I can see and hear how much it means to you, just sharing the story again. As you say, it’s not a good story, but a nice ending to have that full circle for you to see through. Then I suppose the journey there—it’s hard to quite contemplate the challenges you described there. So, what personality traits do you think are important in any leader, let alone a school leader?
Cathie: I think you need really good self-awareness. That’s got to be up there because leadership is fundamentally about working with people and people wanting to follow the vision you’re communicating. Knowing yourself and being aware of what triggers and motivates you.
And have inner knowledge of yourself which brings a greater understanding of other people. Familiarity with your own story allows you to be patient, empathic, and sometimes fearless with yourself and others. So yes, I think knowing yourself, being able to work well with others, but also ultimately knowing what it is that you’re aiming towards. A personal quality of being determined around the realisation of your vision has to be massive for leadership because you have to know where you’re going.
Nick: I really like the “knowing yourself” observation, but it’s quite difficult, isn’t it? You need some road to travel and the confidence that comes with becoming a more comfortable leader. Would you mind sharing a personal perspective on what you’ve learned about yourself through your career?
Cathie: No, I don’t mind at all. The first book I read before I became a head teacher—I was a head teacher at 28—was Stephen Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It became my go-to, like a Bible for the journey of knowing yourself. Chapters like Begin with the End in Mind and Seek First to Understand Before You’re Understood gave great prompts for what I’m about and what’s real for me. Reading that book every summer holiday for many years refocused me for the autumn term, ensuring my feet were on the ground and I knew what I was about. I’ve learned over the years—treating others the way you would want your own nearest and dearest to be treated feels central to how I’ve tried to lead. That chapter on Seek First to Understand is something I think about every day. When you want to get a message across or have a challenging conversation, beginning with, “If I can truly understand how you see this issue or the world around this topic,” allows me to start to hope to be understood. Whether it’s working as a head, talking to a parent about a difficult issue, or dealing with a staff member, people lean in more if they feel you’ve taken the trouble to try to understand them first of all.
At Reach2, we talk about making it personal. What would we say about this topic if these children were ours, our nieces and nephews, our next-door neighbour’s children, our own children? If you make it personal, something about your heart beats a little faster, and you start seeing things from the inside out. Over the years, I’ve made my best decisions when I’ve thought about this person being my sister, my nephew—it just feels like the right way to lead ethically.
Nick: Could you say a bit more about how that works practically on the ground in your organisation and making it personal? It sounds really interesting.
Cathie: Yes. When the general election was announced, we had our People Parliament, which has kindly been hosted at the House of Commons for the last few years. However, it had to be cancelled because of purdah. The team did what they would usually do in a national organisation, trying to make things work financially and logistically, and suggested we host it on Zoom. But I said, “If these were your children, if these were my children, what would we want someone to do?” These are year sixes, and some of them have never been to London before. They think they’re coming to London, doing People Parliament at the House of Commons, and going on a riverboat cruise afterwards. We're actually going to cancel all of that? There would be 20 to 25 children who wouldn’t come to London because of a general election. I felt there was more reason to come to London so they could understand more about their voice, becoming statespeople of the future, and democracy. So, to cut a long story short, we hosted it in one of our London schools. They did their trip around the capital in the afternoon. It’s not about having some sort of saviour complex, but thinking, “If this child were mine, and they came home saying, ‘Our London trip’s cancelled,’” let’s not disappoint children if we can avoid it.
Nick: It’s interesting to note that the pace and complexity of your organisation and the sector can tempt a leader to do what’s expedient rather than what’s right. I think we all recognise that challenge and the temptation to take the easy route. You’ve talked a little bit about becoming a leader quite young, so it seems you hit the ground running as a leader. Cathie, I was curious—how has your experience in a school in special measures shaped you as a leader?
Cathie: Yes, so it wasn’t the same school; this was much later when I became an NLE and was deployed there. But it was on the back of having done some school turnarounds. The school where I first became a head teacher had gone into special measures a month before I started there as a deputy head. I began in September with the headteacher, but it didn’t work out for him, so several replacement leaders came in from the local authority. I kept toiling away at what I thought needed to happen next, doing what was right for the school. I was a teaching deputy, which was super demanding on time but, looking back, the best possible thing in terms of credibility. The school was incredibly challenging, with high deprivation, and behaviour was off the wall, mostly due to the instability after going into special measures. For the staff to see me teaching year six, taking assemblies, and teaching maths sets while managing very difficult behaviour from children who were clearly expressing their feelings about the school’s situation—that was key. The community was disillusioned, and the children were making sure we knew about it too.
So, yeah, I was head teacher by the April of my first year there. Applied for the job against a lot of really experienced heads. I was able to say that I would carry on doing what I've been doing. I've got the staff behind me at that point, and, Yeah, nothing on paper, really Nick, that suggested I could do that job.
I've been a music co-ordinator before that, with a budget of about 100 pounds to buy some new maracas. So it was: I've got a lot to learn, and I did learn a lot, but I had to learn it quickly.
Nick: But your year six self knew you were going to be a head teacher?
Cathie: Yes, my year six self did. Yes.
Nick: And did that follow through to that time?
Cathie: Yeah, completely. Because the thing about the children, of course, was keeping responding to them in a way that kept their dignity. My degree and my master's are in psychology, so I don’t know, I’m wired in a way that always tries to look for the reasons behind things.
And I knew that the children behaving in the way that they did was just trying to tell us something about how they felt. If we could get to the root of what that was somewhere upstream, we would be able to sort out what was going on downstream in what we saw in the playground and in the assembly hall.
And over a period of time, we did. Working with families and getting the community on side really helped. I was a young mum, and despite being very young and inexperienced, I could easily have not been taken seriously. My credibility with the community was all based on being a parent in my own right, which was interesting because that didn’t really have anything to do with how I was doing my job.
But they were the kind of parents, and that was a kind of mark of life experience that then meant I could be taken seriously. So they were heady days. Lots of those staff have gone on to become head teachers. I think the thing I’m most proud of from that period of time is that pretty much every single member of the team that saw that school go into special measures was there with me to see it come out as a good school.
We talk a lot, don’t we, in leadership about dealing with staff capability and staff disciplinary in a way that is fearless and courageous? I don’t take a word of that away; it does have to be done sometimes. But in this case, it was a team of people that were incredibly talented. Once we started doing more of the right things, we were flying, and they were all there to celebrate the school coming out of measures and into good. Many, as I said, have gone on to lead.
So yeah, it’s hard not to remember those times without a kind of dual sense of exhaustion and exhilaration. They were good times.
Nick: I mean, quotes can be overused and often misattributed and changed, but I stumbled across one from John Quincy Adams, former US president, that goes: "If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more, and become more, you are a leader." Does that resonate?
Cathie: Yeah, so much. Big, big, big smiles while you were reading that. I think that’s exactly it. That’s why I suppose, talking at the beginning of our time together about understanding other people, if you want real change, things have got to come from the inside of others. It’s about that in Reach2.
We call it the North Star. You don’t negotiate with the North Star. It’s there even when it’s foggy; it’s brightest when it’s dark. You can’t argue with what it’s saying about where the right direction lies. If you can help, as a leader, align people to the sense that this is not my North Star, it’s ours.
That sort of shine in other people when you’re out of the room means, as you say in your quote, "inspired to do the right thing". As a head teacher, you’re not in every classroom, you’re not there for every conversation, you can’t make every decision. But in a multi-academy trust, particularly a big one, you’re lost if you don’t have that because it’s multi-site. All over the place, it’s complex, and you see a tiny proportion of what goes on in any given working week.
With our head teachers in Reach2, that’s what I see my role fundamentally being. When I first spoke to them, when I got the job as CEO, I said, for me, CEO is the Chief Energy Officer. If I can energise you to just be the best versions of yourselves and keep that North Star shining bright, then you will de facto just do great things every day. That’s the best I can ever try to do. They’re a brilliant team, and I’m honoured to try to be that to them.
Nick: So, how do you use your leadership to lift others up and give them that energy?
Cathie: I try to keep in contact as much as possible. That’s a challenge, and I don’t think I’ve nailed that completely, but I have regular contact with our staff teams in schools. I use video messages, as much as I think will refrain from irritating people too much. I meet head teachers remotely every two weeks, we have longer sessions regularly with the heads for full days of strategy work, and then face to face with heads as much as I can, whether that’s through school visits, small groups for heads meetings, coaching sessions, or big events like conferences.
To be the Chief Energy Officer, you can convey so much more if you try and do that as close to in-person as possible, so people can hear your voice, see your face. I’m not great on email – it does a job, but it’s information transfer. It’s never going to inspire people in the way we’ve talked about.
Also, the people appointed to work with head teachers within our central team do great work. This is not all about me. It’s about me leading the team with the executives I work with, all of whom are phenomenal at their jobs, much better than I could ever be. The team that works with them regionally with the head teachers – seven of those people were head teachers in Reach2 before and have been promoted into these new roles a few years ago when we moved to our current model of clusters.
Reminiscing about being a head teacher, I think there is no more demanding job in education. The demands of the job I’m doing now are different, though. One of those is about communicating. It’s how you keep people fired up, keep them understanding where they are in a change process, and involve them in collaborating on new directions when you’re working at scale and nationally. I don't think we've cracked that, but we're we're we're trying.
Nick: So I'm curious, and might come back to that in a moment. But it was clearly important to you. You talked about your first headship, and you were just getting stuck in, doing the things, leading by example. With the size of the organisation you're leading now, I forget how many academies you've got, but it's a good number. What do you do to help keep you connected with both staff and your pupils and what they're experiencing and saying? it's clearly important to you, I'm curious how that translates to this important role you have.
Cathie: We have 62 schools, and they're all primary. It's interesting, we started talking about an assembly back in 1980, and I still do assemblies as CEO whenever I'm in the schools. It probably sounds like an odd decision. And I think maybe is old in some ways because there’s nothing about assemblies in my job description. But I do it for the reasons that I kind of implied in your question, in a 20-minute assembly, pretty much all staff are present, and so are all the children, from reception right through to year six.
I did a series of assemblies on the Olympics, focusing on the refugee team, what it means to be a refugee, and the importance of supporting both the refugee team and Team GB, as well as teams from the children's own home countries for the children. I usually choose one of our Reach2 values, which we call touchstones.
I try to make it inspiring, by talking about values like responsibility or inspiration.
I look the staff and children in the face and tell them, "What you're going to do today, when you get back to your classrooms, is never doubt that you are seeing the power of the possible." I remind them that they’re seeing the change that happens because of what they do. Then I turn to the children and tell them that the people we talk about, like Olympians, were just children like them once. It's important for them to see their own futures in that. I try to make it an inspiring as I can.
For 20 minutes, I feel like I get a big bang for my buck. It’s much more efficient than interrupting lessons or expecting teachers to listen to me when they’re trying to mark books at lunchtime. So, that’s why I keep doing it.
Nick: Fascinating. And it’s so important in your story. I read an interesting book by, I think it’s Priya Parker, "The Art of Gathering". It’s easy to forget, in a busy world, that if you think purposefully about why you’re coming together, it can be incredibly impactful. But sometimes we rush through gatherings and miss the opportunity.
Cathie: Yes, absolutely. It's also useful as a kind of temperature check on how the school's feels. I don’t start speaking the moment the first child walks into the hall. I watch them come in and gauge their levels of engagement. I observe how behaviour is managed, and I look at the faces of the staff. It’s a good indicator of the school’s culture. Sometimes, when things haven’t been going well, I can see it in the dejected looks of staff and in children who are struggling. That’s not my primary reason for being there, but it does help me see what’s going on in the school day to day.
Thankfully, 99% of the time, it’s positive now. But there have been times over the last 12 years when I’ve had reason to think, “All is not well here.”
Nick: So, as a Chief Energy Officer, you’re also a human being. Where do you go to get energy when you need a boost?
Cathie: I get energy from being around people. The very things I talk about giving energy to—being with people—I get back. Our Head Teachers’ Conference, which is only twice a year, is massive for me. I’m on a high for two weeks after that because I’ve seen everyone, been with everyone, and received feedback. It’s really energising.
I’m not great as a remote worker. If I have a day or two working from home, it’s fine. Sometimes, it’s a relief not to get on a train, but if I go more than two or three days without being out and about, my energy levels drop.
Personally, I’m a runner. Not massive distances and increasingly not very fast, but I do it most days. I get up early and run before the world wakes up. Sometimes, I listen to great music; other times, just the sounds around me. It usually lifts my mood and keeps me going through the day. Even though it uses energy, running always leaves me feeling terrific.
Nick: What got you into running?
Cathie: Honestly, it started with a big weight loss programme in my late 30s. After the dieting effort, I realised I needed something to burn calories. I googled “the best sport for burning calories” and, surprise, surprise, running came up. At the time, I could barely run 10 metres, so I started with Couch to 5K, then progressed to 10Ks, and eventually half-marathons. I even did the London Marathon three years ago. These days, I stick to 5Ks and 10Ks. It’s been an incredible gift to me, and I do it wherever I go.
If I can find someone to run with me, it’s even better. I love to chat while running.
Nick: It’s interesting to hear how people make time for themselves. There are the health benefits of exercise, of course, but it also seems like an important part of looking after yourself.
Cathie: Yes, it’s like Stephen Covey’s seventh habit: “Sharpen the saw.” We go through life, busy with a blunt saw, thinking it’s indulgent to step away and sharpen it. But the opposite is true. I read that chapter at a crucial time in my life, not just in my leadership journey, but personally. Now, with children and grandchildren, I see that taking time to look after yourself isn’t indulgent.
It's not selfish. I know I'm a nicer person to be around if I've done a couple of things that feel like they're more for me, and keeping that saw sharp. I try and encourage people in my team because it’s hard, particularly if you’re home-based and work remotely.
It's hard to mark the beginning and end of a day in the same way you do when you enter and leave a building. That can mean people are on email from the moment they open their eyes until they turn off their bedside light at night. I try not to do that—it doesn't always work.
But nobody wants a CEO, or indeed any kind of leader, who's constantly showing up having a bad hair day because they’re just shattered. So I try and walk the walk as well as talk the talk on that one.
Nick: I'm curious, I made a mental note earlier to come back to Covey because you said you read it every summer. And I was thinking of "Sharpen the saw". I mean, it's so simply constructed—the seven habits in many respects—but there's so much depth and nuance to it. Have you read it again this summer?
Cathie: No, I haven’t this summer. I think it's now so ingrained in me that it's like a script. I almost don't need to go back to it. But maybe talking to you now has made me think I could. The habits are simple and memorable, but yes, it’s the depth of the writing that appealed to me so much. He was, of course, a very faith-filled, family-oriented, successful professional. So, there was a lot to him and a lot to his family.
I think I read that book at such a crucial time in my life. I was trying to work out how I could manage without letting the enormous waves of demand on me wash me away. What could I do? What habits could I establish that would safeguard family life and keep me sane?
It was like a kind of mast that I strapped myself to at a crucial point in my life. I’ve stayed there as best I can.
Nick: Changing tack a little bit, and I’m conscious of the time now, so there might be constraints on what you feel comfortable saying. But thinking of you, Cathie, as a CEO, what’s on your mind this week?
Cathie: It’s the same sorts of things that I used to have on my mind as a head, which is: First of all, can I do it? I think the summer holiday, even now—not taking term-time in the same way—brings a sort of recurring anxiety, like actual nightmares about lack of preparation for the new term. I’ve had dreams where I’m in a classroom with no chairs, or no one’s got any paper. I had one of those dreams last week, and I was back in a school with a completely disorganised lesson.
I've had that sort of August feeling throughout my career where I wonder if I can do this, because after a break, you have to go again. So, as we're talking this week, I’ve got this list of things about reacquainting myself with our five-year plan, the coming year, the big things that have to go well this year, and what I want to make the biggest difference to. It’s just that process of finding myself as CEO again.
So, at the moment, what’s on my mind is the enormous responsibility of this job, the usual visitor from imposter syndrome saying, “Are you fit for this?” And I know the way I overcome that is by pushing through—reacquainting myself, reading, connecting with people—so that by the time the schools come back at the beginning of September, I will have shaken all that off and be ready to fire on all cylinders and be the best I can be for the team.
Nick: That’s really fascinating. It sounds like you know yourself quite well. As we come towards the end of our time together, I’m interested—given how busy things must be with over 60 academies—how do you make time to think?
Cathie: I don’t. I actually diarise it. I didn’t use to in the early days of Reach2. It was before we had an established team, so I was just rushing around doing the work and not spending enough time thinking about it. Now, I set holidays aside, I have desk time for strategic thinking, and I have a list of things I want to read or think about. I try and go dark for the day as much as I can, so I’m not drawn into what’s in my inbox.
I have one of those days set aside every six weeks where I can really think. I’m also, as I get older, increasingly an early bird. Particularly in winter, before it gets light and before I run, I’ll set time aside to read first thing in the morning. I’m at my best then—alert and interested in what’s going on.
It’s little and often—early mornings, time on trains. I always try to travel by train when I can so that time is not stressful or wasted. I’ll have podcasts to listen to on the train or the tube, and things to read. It’s about little and often, as well as setting those days aside.
Nick: On those days, what sorts of questions do you ask yourself? What do you think about?
Cathie: I think about how my immediate team is operating. We did a lot of work when I first got the job two and a half years ago, setting up a new executive team. We worked on what makes an effective team, and I’ll spend time rereading things I’ve talked about with the team, or things from previous meetings. I then look at how we’re operating now and where I need to make tweaks or changes.
I always ask my team what they want me to continue doing, which is usually quite easy because those tend to be things I do instinctively well. But I also ask them what I’m not doing enough of, or what they’d like me to do more of. They give me open and honest feedback, which is what I want. So, I look at that and how I’m addressing it.
For example, a recurring piece of feedback is that I’m drawn to big-picture thinking and projects, but I don’t give enough time or space to work on the detail of execution. I then tend to move on to the next big thing before fully embedding something. So, I’ll deliberately think about a big project we’re working on and consider more of the detail. I ask myself, am I rushing people along?
We’re getting better at that. I have a team who are better at detail than I am, so when I set time aside for thinking, I try to balance the big ideas with a focus on the detail of execution. For example, this year, we’re focusing on RSE (Relationships and Sex Education), and I want to understand what that means for primary children. I’ll do some reading, but I’ll also discipline myself to think through the rollout and sustainability, rather than focusing on a one-off, flashy event.
It’s not just about the low-hanging fruit; it’s about sustaining change over time, particularly in a multi-site, complex organisation like ours. So, year on year, I’m just trying to be better.
Nick: There’s so much in there, and I have more questions, but I think we’re running out of time, Cathie. So, I’m going to ask one last question. We started with you revealing a bit more about yourself, and I think this last question will do the same. What dreams do you have for the future of Reach2?
Cathie: It’s the North Star, Nick. It’s the only dream, and I know it’s a dream. I’d have to be in the job for another 50 or 100 years to see it fully realised, but the North Star is for every school to be a great school.
We’ve done some really exciting work with the heads and their teams around what we mean by “great.” We didn’t choose the word “outstanding” for a reason, and that predates the current context with single-word judgments. We chose “great” for a reason, and we’ve written about what we mean by that.
When you look at what that means for the individual child, that’s why I say it’s a dream. It’s the infinite game, to quote Simon Sinek, because for every school to be a great school, every child has to flourish in the way we want our own children to. It’s a huge undertaking, with complex resources and depleted budgets. The job gets ever bigger, but my dream is that we get closer and closer to that North Star.
There are many great schools in this country, and I’m proud to say that a good few of them are in Reach2. I just want to see that number grow. Not because of stats, inspections, or percentages, but because that means every one of the 20,000 children we support will have a better future. That’s the best dream I can dream.
Nick: I’m going to use your language, and I think that’s a great way for us to finish today, Cathie. Thank you very much for joining me today and for your candour. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our discussion, and I hope our listeners have as well.
Cathie: Thank you, Nick. It’s been a pleasure
