#EdInfluence
In his inimitable style, Nick unearths the secrets of good leadership from his guests.
Trusted by thousands of education providers across the country, Browne Jacobson is an award winning national law firm helping clients and partner organisations shape and influence education policy.
#EdInfluence
S04 - E08 with Jonny Searle MBE, OLY
Olympic and world champion rower Jonny Searle opens our conversation with a powerful story from his coaching experience that fundamentally shifted his understanding of leadership responsibility.
Throughout the discussion, Jonny shares a philosophy centred around seeing people as genuinely unique rather than variations of ourselves. "We see the world not as it is, but as we are," he explains, highlighting how this perspective has transformed his leadership effectiveness.
Drawing from his experience as a COO in a scale-up tech business and over 13 years as general counsel and company secretary for an international business, Jonny shares some deceptively simple advice for learning leaders: understand your people and help them do what they enjoy and excel at.
Whether you're leading a sports team, business unit, or classroom, Johnny's insights remind us that effective leadership begins with seeing people as they truly are.
Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn.
Welcome to the latest episode of Edi nfluence. I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson and today I'm delighted to be joined by Jonny Searle, coach at PCP and founder of One Stop Advisors who work and support SMEs. Thank you, Jonny, for joining me today. I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are.
Jonny Searle:Thanks, Nick. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Probably think of, think of of that you know. So I picked a story that's somewhat leader related, uh, and it's basically I did a lot of rowing when I was younger and I still do some rowing coaching.
Jonny Searle:I was doing some rowing coaching recently and it's the story of being on a training camp with a big group of rowers two eights full of rowers and I sent them a load of work to do, obviously the launch driving along behind them, and it was an incredibly hot day in France. It was three 20 minute pieces side by side which I think probably even when I was young I would have found a really tough session and for various reasons, they'd gone off really hard and as time was going on, I was seeing they were, they were fading and they were struggling and they finished the last piece. They did this last 20 minutes sort of absolutely flat out and they just, I'm feeling I've got kind of goosebumps now, they just stopped in the water and they were just totally and utterly broken. I could just see them all lying over their oars and I just thought that was too much. And that's what I mean. Now I'm emotional and so I think it's, and then I suppose the deployment.
Jonny Searle:So I tried to, I tried to think why is that resonate for me as a, as a leader?
Jonny Searle:And I think it's, it was something around this idea.
Jonny Searle:I probably have myself as a sort of caring leader, you know, thinking about people in my team and there's something to try and achieve as a goal and the purpose.
Jonny Searle:But also there's people there and I think, the sort of window into how, if you're leading, people will do things because you're the leader, because perhaps you, they trust you that you know what you're doing, you encourage them to do it and and I thought probably that day, so it just to be the work was the right type of work and and I probably had put too much work on the program for the, for the weather, for the level of experience they were, for their level of fitness, and I suppose that's a bit of a pattern, I think, for leaders everywhere you don't maybe always realise the influence you have over people and they will try and do what they perhaps think they're supposed to because of your position, but it's not always apparent to you as a leader that that might be going on, that you'd think someone would say I'm absolutely exhausted, can we stop the work, for example, or something like that.
Jonny Searle:I don't know why. It just kind of landed me. It was a very emotional moment just seeing all these people who were a bit sort of broken.
Nick MacKenzie:What happened next? Did you talk to them about that observation you had?
Jonny Searle:yeah, that's a good question. No, I was like turning the launch, feeling, I mean, I was really emotional because I could just see them all across the river and we've still, I think we're still some 10 minutes from the boat outside. We, yeah, I think I think at the time I probably just see them all across the river and we were still. I think we were still some 10 minutes from the boathouse. I think at the time I probably just gave them the time to recover, like all these things. They are athletes and they were fit, so there was time to recover a bit and paddle back, but I didn't.
Jonny Searle:But I think it definitely was definitely a bit of a tipping point, in terms of how I set programs for for the group. You know, just to be more mindful, that there's responsibilities. I think, particularly as a sports coach, if people sort of that was its physical, mental well-being, but the same in any environment, people you're responsible for, I suppose, yeah, I suppose it's just that, that care for people. So, no, I I didn't talk to him about that, but I think I have mentioned it to some of them from time to time. At that, that moment, and now, you know, it's interesting because some will say look, we want to be good, we want to be good athletes, and being pushed and being stretched is part of that, and so I think the point was really, for some it was okay to do that and for some it wasn't.
Jonny Searle:There was quite a mixed level of ability in the group and checking that people have signed up for the type of leadership you might be offering. Perhaps that's the the lesson and I think I've obviously done on the spot. I think you see it particularly in sport, but I think it goes across the board, stepping in that that people, yeah, have signed up for, signed up for the journey and the journey and the way we're going to go on it. As you said, sometimes I would talk to groups and it's a talks to groups. I remember doing a sort of talk about winning the Olympics and goal setting and this sort of stuff to everyone, and someone said I don't really want to be that good, I'm just quite happy, you know, coming in and doing my job. At the time I was much younger and I, you know, I couldn't quite register with that, but I think it was a good reminder that we've all got different, different aspirations and different levels.
Jonny Searle:We want to commit different priorities in life and different amounts of energy and be mindful that people in your team are in that place.
Nick MacKenzie:So I think I think you said a moment ago part of it, was it sort of challenge your own view of yourself as a leader and how you saw yourself as a as a leader, how would you describe your leadership philosophy and how has it evolved?
Jonny Searle:yeah, I suppose I think, if you know, I don't think of myself as a, you know, as a leader in a permanent state. I think we can all lead from time to time. I think that's one of the points that there might be someone with a title or or a role they've been given. But I'll talk about that for a moment. You know, I suppose for me leadership is about working with a group of people to achieve some sort of goal, purpose, we'll call it, and the bit I would add is and also enjoying the journey to the goal. So I suppose for me that would be, that would be broadly that's trying to do something with a group of people and try and enjoy, enjoy the journey and at the moment,
Nick MacKenzie:So you're a sports coach and business coach and I saw, I looked on your website and it had a quote on there where it says we see the world not as it is, but as we are.
Nick MacKenzie:And it's very prominent on on your website and I was curious why that's important to you.
Jonny Searle:I think it goes back to some of the stuff I mentioned earlier that you know we're all different. I mean and I guess that's what I found most interesting about doing the executive, the coaching work is this chance to listen to people, to learn about people and just to realise how different everyone is. And you can't believe how different people are when you can as you coach. But most people, I think they think they're, broadly, some sort of version of themselves. Perhaps that's not quite true, but many people appear to think someone is either a slightly better or slightly worse version than themselves. That's that's if I hear people talk sometimes, that's so impression I get as opposed to what I see.
Jonny Searle:And is that, everyone has a great version of themselves or something of that nature? Or if everyone is, you know, everyone is unique and have different things that are important to them, different, yeah, different things are important to them different skills, different behaviours, different, different preferences. So I suppose when I'm working with people as a coach, you know I will always start with what, what do you like doing, what's important to you, and what do you think broadly and say you're good at? And if we can get those things out, then people are most likely to end up in some sort of happy place, I suppose, doing things they're good at and things they like doing.
Nick MacKenzie:Could you perhaps tell me about someone who's helped you become the person today you are today?
Nick MacKenzie:and, yeah, who's really influenced you and how? Is there anyone?
Jonny Searle:that is an interesting question. Who's influenced me? Feel sorry, this is a lot, just like either question feels like I'm in a sort of you know, job interview and someone's asked me a tricky question, I'm fumbling around to get out. I think I get influenced by people all the time. You know, when I was working I worked for a long time as a general counsellor business and I remember listing all the people I sort of admired, respected and had positions in the business and writing down three things about them.
Jonny Searle:I had a book and I had three things about them that I thought were part of what made them good at what they did. I don't know, it was some secret guy. He was really top, he knew all about technology, he was a great networker, he was a clear communicator, for example. So I might have had that. I don't know, someone on my team who was super diligent, knew the law and was really friendly. Don't know, you know, just so I had this sort of map of I don't know if you've got a bunch of positive, useful traits. I think they're all not so many behaviours that context, specific, that I'm not sure if I could say one person is the person who influences it. I find myself influenced by people all the time, and just you know, when I'm coaching people, actually that's a good option and I'll listen to someone and go, yeah, that's interesting, and you know, I'll try and take some of that or do some of that.
Nick MacKenzie:Thinking back to some of those traits you jotted down, was there any that particularly surprised you when you observed it and thought about it?
Jonny Searle:I suppose the ones that surprise me sometimes are the ones that I'm probably perhaps less keen on as traits, that yet people still progress with those traits, and I suppose that can be challenging when, perhaps, you see people who are have, let's call it, achieve things that were probably important to them, but the way they've achieved them, has been with behaviours that I probably wouldn't be myself
Nick MacKenzie:yeah, and so, speaking of yourself, then what, what traits do you think are important in a leader?
Jonny Searle:yeah, I mean, I suppose, if I think, you know, a bit about those particular.
Jonny Searle:I worked for about 10 years with one, you know one, one manager, and I was quite a good member but actually the chair. So there's another. There was another senior person in the business at the time as well and both similar sort of traits, I would say, broadly, pretty straightforward people you know you could have a conversation and not have to be guarded, just, I think, in psychological terms, secure, you know secure and stable, but just, that's a fairly straightforward fun, you know I'm enjoyable people, to be a bit of a sense of humour. That for me is really important. Treated everyone with respect, you know.
Jonny Searle:I think, regardless of you know, like people who I don't need to teach you, I coach someone and I just noticed that they quite senior person in business and they chatted to the receptionist as we went out and I thought the businesses I've coached but that was people wouldn't be chatting and really I mean genuinely chatting to receptionists as well as the most important clients. So I think that idea of treating everyone with respect, being smart, sort of basic, you know, intelligence seems to help with many leadership roles. I guess it's a bit of problem solving, listening to people. I think, again, it's a hard thing to do as a leader. Sometimes people are a bit nervous, a bit scared to come forward. You don't realise that. Certainly had that from time to time found out that people didn't want to speak up and I thought, well, I was quite approachable. So I think to really work hard at listening being something that I noticed.
Jonny Searle:And I suppose perhaps to one of my points today, you know, I think somebody sort of focused on the goal, focus on what it is we're trying to achieve, without broadly advancing themselves. You know, I think to trust that the purpose here is to move forwards and even occasionally to, you know, I'd say, that's great leadership when you, when you, when you help the team and you, move towards the goal and it actually might even cost you personally and always. That's I'm not always sometimes interested at how leaders sometimes put themselves first and almost drop the goal a bit and drop the people so that they dance and think I'd say the opposite of that is something that I would aspire to perhaps.
Nick MacKenzie:I believe you've recently co-authored a book called the Trainee Coach Handbook and I understand you wrote a chapter exploring the importance of relationship between coach and client. I think you're perhaps talking about some of that in some of those attributes to have a positive relationship from, from coaching, and clearly there may be people listening that are coaches and coach, but there's others that will use coaching in their relationships, in their management and leadership. What? What are some key things that you've learned about the importance of getting a positive outcome from that relationship, whether it's a formal coaching or more of a quasi-coaching relationship?
Jonny Searle:Yeah, so the chapter was, I guess it was a twofold. It was a bit about the importance of, let's say, probably having a working relationship. So someone said to me that looks quite good, that probably there was this we've did groups of people in the world into perhaps three categories and there might be thirds. For some people there might be not that proportion, but probably some people we get on really well with and it's easy for us to be with and then to analyse why that is. There's a whole bunch of people. You just meet them and immediately we're connected, okay, well, and then there's a sort of middle ground of people that we can probably work with, you know, professionally, and then in tasks, and that's fine. And there's a third group that are just going to be really really hard to to work with and, I suppose to some sense in the coaching, that's what you're doing in the chemistry section. I suppose you're trying to make sure you're at least in one of those first two groups and, I imagine you won't be aware if you're in the third group. It's, it's just going to be a bit hard and there's no, it's not.
Jonny Searle:When I started off I used to know I'm not a very good coach because someone not everyone wants to work with me. After a while I started to realise this is just how life is. You know, there's a group of people that are it's just a bit not quite the same connection. So I think that's one element of just trying to work out what's going on sometimes and say, okay, well, these are people that's just going to take a lot of energy for us to get on. That's one element. And then the other part of the chapter was around using what's going on in the moment and how you feel as part of a coaching tool, and I think that is something. I guess more empathetic or naturally more empathetic people perhaps would do. Anyway, it's not, it's probably more, a bit more of a learned thing for me.
Jonny Searle:So then picking up what's going on but the idea is, sometimes you're coaching someone and you can feel they're feeling what's going on for them. I might feel a bit anxious and then I think, okay, so is that me or is that you, or I feel sad. That's the thing I notice a lot. Sometimes someone will tell me a story of their career or something that's going on. You know it's a career, I do a lot with career change and and I so I feel incredibly sad having yesterday just I can really feel that and the person's quite impassive about it because perhaps they've locked it away or they haven't thought through and then sometimes being able to then bring that and say, well, you know just how sad that, how sad I feel when I hear that story.
Jonny Searle:Perhaps that allows them to to put it in a perspective and think, yeah, you're right, or how annoyed I might feel, or something like that. You know, I can bring the emotion that I'm feeling. So that's that sort of feeling, what you're feeling. And equally, if you find, you know people say I find myself annoyed with a colleague or something, and you stop and think, why is this? Is it because I was telling you something? I get annoyed. I'm not annoyed with him, I'm annoyed that I'm struggling to understand what they're talking about. And that can help, I think, as a leader, rather than you know, stop, when something comes in and you're in a hurry and you get annoyed.
Jonny Searle:What are you actually annoyed about?
Nick MacKenzie:Yeah, and I suppose to talk about those feelings that you see and feel can be quite, quite challenging. So it's one level of challenge. So you, the first question and the story you gave me, and then you, you named the emotion, you were saying what was going on, although I could sense something before you named it, but you made it easier for me by naming it then. But you then described a story of sometimes where you're feeling something but someone's producing, quite passive, it can, quite can take a bit of bravery, can it to, name it and try and pull it out into the conversation
Jonny Searle:yeah, I certainly wouldn't have done it when I was younger.
Jonny Searle:I mean, I'm really grateful that I do the coaching work and I've done so much coaching work and maybe also just I don't know maybe mature in life and realise that, okay, a bunch of people are going to I know, I know that if I workplace I said something like I'm feeling a bit sad, a whole bunch of people are going to judge you.
Jonny Searle:So we shouldn't say you're sad or happy or you know there's. You know, professionalism sometimes comes with a sense of you shouldn't talk about emotions or even be emotional, have emotions, and that I'm happy that I work in spaces that I can perhaps be a bit more and, you know, let those, let the emotions out in some ways and talk about them and be with people who are happy to do that, not in a, not in a way that we spend all day doing that, but it's just possible to, because I think by naming these things it does help from professional. You know I'm talking about the task and if people understand how I was feeling and responding, yeah,
Nick MacKenzie:So we talk about using emotions I suppose, can we talk about resilience for a moment? I'm wondering when things get tough for you, how do you go about responding to that pressure? What have you learned on both yourself and perhaps with all the coaching the team coaching, the business executive coaching you've done? What have you learned about resilience?
Jonny Searle:, I mean I talk to groups, talk to learned about resilience. Yeah, I mean I talk to groups, talk to a new job, about resilience and I suppose some of it comes back to probably the stuff I learned early on, you know, through all the sports I did and I suppose I think of resilience as our ability to stay in this sort of peak performance area. So I guess some people will be familiar with this sort o f curve where you have pressure goes across the bottom and then there's a sort of curve that goes up. But if we have no pressure at all, then we're not doing anything, we're just lying about, and I guess eventually that can be stressful and we won't achieve anything at all. Even getting up to eat. You could say that's the lowest end. There's no pressure, we just lie about. And then there's a middle round where we've got a bit of pressure and we're finishing pressure and then we're performing well and we're getting things done and probably a quite happy state. And then there's a bit where there's too much pressure going on and then people start to get anxious and if they're under pressure for too long, they get stressed and then they get health, both mental and physical health problems.
Jonny Searle:So I suppose when I talk about being resilient, I'm thinking about how do I stay in the peak bit in the middle, and I think that's probably something I've heard from quite an early age. I'm generally quite good at that, I suppose, in terms of getting energy. Actually, that's not true. When I was younger I didn't sleep enough at all when I was working in. Rowing just killed me. I'd get five, six hours nights and I was tired, I think, almost the whole time. So I think that that that now for me, is the number one thing getting enough sleep. It's pretty primal. Back to, you know, study biology, not they need to study biology to know that. You know we're animals and we need to to look after ourselves.
Jonny Searle:But sleep is the probably number one one thing, and for me, I suppose, probably having a bit of support network around and and and trying to use others and involve others in whether that's just in helping me relax or or for tasks that might cause me too much stress to to do them or bring too much pressure.
Jonny Searle:So I suppose a sort of support network sleep and a support network, I suppose are two pretty fundamental bits of resilience, I think. You know, I do sort of think, I mean within reason. If you sleep eight hours a night, you can carry on for a long time doing stuff that can be quite tough. It may be a bit of a miserable existence, but you can at least for a long time doing stuff that can be quite tough. It may be a bit of a miserable existence but you, you can at least function. Function in that way, and if this is a bit of an outlet to be able to talk and have human contact, then you remain in what's supposed broadly a natural animal state of as mammals to be in groups and to be with others.
Nick MacKenzie:And for you, what do you do to help get you to? You said when you were younger you were five, six hours. You're there about eight hours, I'm assuming. Is what you, you try to do now what, how do you find you organise things to make that happen?
Jonny Searle:Broadly. How do I stay in some state of peak performance? Yeah, suppose one is the basic physical part of gathering some energy. So trying to get within reason seven, eight hours sleep most nights. So that's one element.
Jonny Searle:Don't spend as much time as possible with people I really care about, and you know that I find really has always been a theme of my life. I guess doing things with people, I love, people I care about as, yeah, if I look back across my life, when I rode it was with my brother, and I was working with teams, people I'm close to, and then in my home life as well, you know, to have to have someone that supported around. I think that that who enjoyed being with this is a big part of it. And then, beyond that, you know, exercise is quite important for me. You know I realised this might sound a bit weird, but in COVID although for many people, I think you know clearly COVID was a terrible time for me I was at home a lot, everyone was at home, but I had a rowing machine in the house and the ability to train four or five times a week. I was as fit as I've been for many, many years and that I hadn't realised, I think, having had a life of sport, just how important fitness is.
Jonny Searle:So that's probably a third element that I is almost a bit hidden because it's always been part of my life. So big fit is a big thing for me. But what I've noticed over time is it's different for everyone. You know, I did talk to a group once I extra all the things you know exercise and yoga and mindfulness and rest and nutrition, and I asked the group what they did and a guy said he really liked making cupcakes for colleagues because it was a purposeful thing, there was, there was an end to it and it was a giving and it was a, you know, it was a community thing. So I I guess it's. You know, that's what I find interesting. I think people should find what they everyone really. If they really stop and think what will get me at my best, they'll know what it is and, yeah, yeah I.
Nick MacKenzie:I think that's right. One of the reasons I was curious about that is I find myself having more conversations recently with people that are just trying to get back to some of the basics of those self-care things, because it's easy to let them get out of kilter a bit. So could we talk about collaboration? So you've been a part of and you've worked in a number of high-performing sports teams, business teams. I was just wondering what you learned along the way about collaboration.
Jonny Searle:What have I learned about collaboration? What have I learned about collaboration in commerce? That's funny, that's funny. I know we like a conceptual question. I'm now going to think, how I begin to answer what have I learned about collaboration?
Jonny Searle:I think lots of people talk about collaboration. I think sometimes structures mitigate slightly against collaboration. I think that's probably the thing and perhaps as a leader I think you know, given it's a bit about leadership you know then, I think, ensuring your structures encourage collaboration, because if you I guess's sometimes it in professional services, for example, you know people talk about let's all collaborate and then people get rewarded for their individual performance. Perhaps it's if you measure people's individual delivery of client billing, for example, you know happens and and don't get credit when you bring work to someone else. You're talking about collaboration, but but you're you're actually rewarding non-collaboration, for example. That sometimes happens. I mean interesting, I, you know, just out of this sort of consultants or advisory, I'll be working with SMEs and and you know, in setting it up I've really tried to create it as almost like to maximize collaboration. So there's half a dozen or so c-suite experts, but they're very much they're, you know they're marketing the sales, that kind of. They have different skill sets so they shouldn't be treading on each other's toes, or we shouldn't be treading on each other's toes because we've got different skill sets so we're complementary. So that's one element. The reward system is such that if people bring work, they get rewarded for bringing work. If they share work, they get rewarded for that.
Jonny Searle:A group of people who I would say are you know some of the categories I've talked earlier relatively straightforward, not relatively straight, totally straightforward fun people. So it's it's fun to be in the group, just regardless of whether we're working together. They, they're straightforward, so if there are challenges we can talk them through. They've got relevant complementary skill sets and the incentives are all collaboration.
Jonny Searle:So I suppose the venture is to a certain extent, me pulling together the learnings I've had over the years and thinking about what makes good teams and then with the view that we meet clients and we work with clients who who want that unified team and that client is also part of the team, if that makes sense. You know, I think that certainly. I enjoyed as a, as an in-house lawyer, to work with an external lawyer where it really felt like there's a continuation here from the business people to the, to the in-house lawyers to the external lawyers. We're all really working on the same challenge here and we just happen to have different roles and in different organizations. But but if the, if the goal is, the is the thing, and we keep that, that goal in mind, we should, you know, we should should go well you.
Nick MacKenzie:You mentioned a short while ago covid and covid probably accelerated workplaces adopting more agile, remote working practices. I know perhaps a pullback to more in office and in some areas, but do you notice that that had a impact on how effectively people could collaborate? Did it make things better, worse, just different?
Jonny Searle:My feeling is the change was a bit like collaboration, was a bit like collaboration a bit harder, because people weren't quite used to the communication tools and not working together. And I I suspect there's still places in which right, but it's not just, you know, zoom calls or team calls that that need a bit of extra thought. People use emails and people think they're collaborating when they copy 25 people into a, into an email, or when they don't copy anyone's email or copy the wrong people either. So there are. Yeah, I suppose you could say well, in physical, all being approximate looks like it's easy to collaborate, but maybe there's inefficiencies there as well, and and people aren't at their best levels, they don't like the group dynamics. So I think it's more about learning how to use particular tools, particular communication tools, for collaboration.
Jonny Searle:That would be probably the way I'd think of it and I guess when we first started, I guess I'd be on call, so I was just 15 people and three people would spend most of the time talking and three people would never talk at all. Things like, I guess, the leader recognising you know, the more introvert people might speak, the more extrovert people will always speak, and you know, I think. I think perhaps there's an opportunity for a leader to use remote working. You know, you know, be quite mindful about how you, how you, how you do that, because having 200 people on the calls might look like great collaboration but might be quite inefficient in terms of If collaboration is for a purpose, if the goal is whatever it is to be a successful business or a happy group of people or whatever. Keeping that in mind and saying how does this serve that and how do we get towards that with this Zoom call or massive email chain or whatever it might be.
Nick MacKenzie:Yeah, you chatted earlier about the importance of listening and that I think, as opposed to larger numbers, you know you don't feel listened to if you're not getting the signals back and the more people you've got communicating in can make it harder to feel as an individual listened to. But that communication piece I think is interesting as well. Is there anything you've brought into your, your business coaching from your sports coaching in high performing teams? Because in some senses that collaborative golden, that imperative, is clearer. So, but have you learned anything about how to communicate more effectively?
Jonny Searle:I mean, I think this, there can be this perception that you know sport and sport has all these lessons for life, and I think there are, there are, there are. The principles are probably the same. I think the difference is that in a sports team, as an individual sports, if you don't perform well as a team, the results are there, they're pretty plain to see what's going on. And if you, you know the, the pressure to perform, that we call it, or the, or the, the, the metrics of success are more obvious, uh, and so that tends to drive better communication and because it's so visible, whereas I think in a workplace it's, it's often much less clear, the goal is much less clear and actually, you know, it can be unhelpful, I think, to bring the sports behaviour, if you like, because people can be quite direct with one another. Sometimes you know we're trying to win this thing. Everyone knows that if someone tells someone to go over there, we're doing it to, I don't know, cover the pitch. Or if someone says, you know, don't do as much as I'd like you to train, or you have these difficult conversations, or you're going to team down, or whatever it might be, that is clearly around the purpose of a goal and it's probably a fairly clear, tangible goal and everyone gets that. But in a workplace, relationships are so important. I think if you bring that direct communication that might be more acceptable in sport into a workplace, I think people can damage relationships with colleagues who aren't as motivated by the goal. Everyone's got different goals in the workplace and here it tends to be. We've all signed up to do this race. We accept certain things. Some people are just coming in because they need to pay their mortgage or, they're qualified as this thing and they can't, they're not super qualified for anything else. They're just kind of getting by. And the leader who's got a big aspiration, because they want the next promotion or whatever it might be, and they're trying to bring people along who they're like that's your goal, that's not, that's not my goal.
Jonny Searle:You know, when I heard something the other day, it was something about gdp being a measure of success. It was a. I thought it was really interesting. It was a thing in the FT and it was someone saying we're measuring the wrong thing. We measure GDP because what measured clearly is an economic measure of success and yet for many people, yes, some money is important, but economic success isn't the only measure by which they judge whether, instead of happiness and inclusivity and the environment, a bunch of other things that you could be measuring success by, and so I suppose that some jumping around a bit, but I think that idea and when you're in a workplace, people have got different measures of success.
Jonny Searle:You know, back to the thing I said earlier, what people like and what's important to them is being a key thing. The people in the team, in a work environment, are much more likely to have different things that are important and different goals. And again as a leader, and back to the quote about see the world through our own eyes, you know, really, assuming that everyone else is motivated and likes the same things you do, you may not be getting the best out of people. I think, ideally, you're finding everyone a place where they can do what they like and do the things they're good at, but for me, it's what good leadership is about so that everyone's doing their best to move towards the goal and everyone's enjoying their time in the environment.
Nick MacKenzie:Probably just time for probably a couple questions left. Jonny, you mentioned earlier about studying biology and I was in a conversation with my children recently and came across a Charles Darwin quote, so I'm curious what you'll make make of this. Where he was talking about it's not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. In the context of leadership and living a flourishing life, does that resonate for you?
Jonny Searle:Well, these are tricky questions. Yeah, most adaptable to change, I think, as someone who is okay with change, you know, then I probably would, would agree with that. But you know, as you all know, from the different sort of personality styles, there are the people that see and that's what it's safety, or you know, through control, and there are people that see safety through adaptation. You know, that's broadly two, two approaches and the two polarities, and then people sit with me. So I suppose I'm, I'm okay. I've changed roles from time to time. I've, you know, changed things in my life.
Jonny Searle:I enjoy, to a sense, I enjoy that change. So I think it's helpful, if an environment is changing, to enjoy change, if that makes sense, and be comfortable with it. But I think there are also ways to lead where you know something is more fixed and change isn't happening, and we can see that with certain industries that won't be changing so much, there'll be certain jobs that don't change so much. So again, I think it's it's, you know where, you know I'm going to get into some whole discussion about evolution. I'm going too deep into that question because he was obviously writing the context of evolution and whether you know how much evolution is going things perhaps that's across generations. You it's not like an individual chooses to change. That is about. I mean, now we're getting into the genetic change and it's quite a slow process. I suppose, evolution, but back to the original point I think, the ability to change. For me, I enjoy a bit of change and I think it helps me.
Nick MacKenzie:Yeah, I always thought it was a dangerous question to ask you in terms of knowing your background and the level of broader context and detail you'd have with it. But perhaps we just finish on what would be your best advice you would give to a learning leader.
Jonny Searle:I think probably what I've talked about earlier is I think just, people are different. They're good at different things. Trying to get the best out of people is probably the number one thing for me is that it needs to try and try to try to get people doing things they like doing and the things they're good at, and to spend a bit of time trying to help them move around. And if there are opportunities to do different bits of work I certainly always used to do that with the team I had. They would shuffle around a bit and say do you want to do some of this? And so on, within some limits that the business has to get forward in the you're trying to achieve a goal. But I think that would be my advice you want to understand about the people you're working with and get the best out of each of them.
Nick MacKenzie:I think that's a perfect place for us to stop. So, Jonny, thank you very much for joining me today and, for entertaining my questions. I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion. I do hope our listeners have as well.
Jonny Searle:Thanks very much Nick.
