#EdInfluence
In his inimitable style, Nick unearths the secrets of good leadership from his guests.
Trusted by thousands of education providers across the country, Browne Jacobson is an award winning national law firm helping clients and partner organisations shape and influence education policy.
#EdInfluence
S05 - E01 Andrew Warren
How much impact can a simple note have on a child's life? In this conversation, Andrew Warren shares the story of a young boy who kept a tattered "Make me proud" note from his headteacher for years, revealing the extraordinary power of authentic connection in education.
Andrew shared experience from his 40-year career, from primary school headteacher to Department for Education regional director, whilst chairing the Teaching Schools Council and being a Founding Fellow of the Chartered College of Teaching along the way.
Having shaped national education policy and worked extensively as a coach and professional mentor with headteachers and senior leaders across the country, Andrew offers valuable insights into leadership that resonate far beyond the education sector.
Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn.
Welcome to the latest episode of Ed Influence. I'm Nick McKenzie from Brown Jacobson and today I'm delighted to be joined by Andrew Warren. Andrew's had a career of over 40 years in education, most recently, I think, the last six years at the Department for Education as one of the regional directors. Thank you, andrew, for joining me today. I wanted to start by inviting you to tell me a story from your life that would give me a picture of who you are.
Speaker 2:Thank you, nick, and it's really good to be here. Thank you for asking me. So I was a headteacher for nearly 20 years and 11 of those I think nine of those actually were in Stoke-on-Trent at a school called mill hill and it was very special place and, um, when I, when I, when I left, I remember very vividly the leavers assembly and I used to joke with staff saying, um, you know, um, when you leave, you kind of always want people to be in tears and to have lots of emotion because it's a sad thing and all that stuff. Anyway, so I did the leave as assembly and it was pretty emotional actually. And I remember going back to my office and saying to my secretary I just think I need 15 minutes to kind of just get myself together. So, if possible nobody, you know, just can you kind of keep the, the disturbances um down or interruptions? Anyway, I sort of sat down in the chair and sort of trying to compose myself and there was a knock at the door and josephine said to me I'm sorry, andrew, but jordan is outside, um, and he wants to speak to you and uh, okay, jordan, and jordan was a trouble. We'll call him Jordan.
Speaker 2:Jordan was a troubled lad and he was one of those sort of children always in trouble. And one of the things I had I felt really strongly about at the school was that every child should have somebody on their side, an advocate, somebody who will always keep their corner, whatever's gone on. And I guess I was probably Jordan's advocate he was year four, I think, at the time and he was sitting on one of the chairs outside the two chairs outside my office, one the children said was the naughty chair and another one was if you wanted to talk to Mr Warren. And I didn't put that rule in place, but they did, did anyway. Jordan was sitting on the not in trouble chair, if I can put it like that, and he was sobbing, and he was a tough cookie, jordan, and um, so anyway. So I brought him into my office, sat him down and sort of said you know what's up, jordan? And I probably sort of said to him you know, you can't, you can't be in trouble already, you know? I mean you've only literally gone back into assembly. You know, have you fallen out with your teacher, have you hit somebody, all those sort of things? And he just carried on sobbing. So I sort of said well, have you had any breakfast? And just tried to see what was going on. And eventually he sort of and he was shaking as he was sobbing, he was really emotional and Jordan wasn't a particularly, as I say, he was a tough kid and he just said he looked at me and he said it's you. And I said what do you mean? It's me. And he said you're leaving. And he just dissolved into tears and I was thinking, gordon Bennett, you know, I was just trying to get myself together after an emotional assembly and Jordan's now sort of sobbing Probably the last person I thought would be sobbing because I was leaving and I sort of got him some tissues and I think I did ask for some breakfast for him to be brought through and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And I was thinking what do I do and what do I say? And I used to have these compliment slips, as you do or you did anyway, I don't know if people still have compliment slips, but I got one out and I just wrote on it make me proud. And I folded it up and I said this is for you. And I said you know, we've had a lot of conversations together, but keep this in your pocket and just when you're kind of not sure what to do, just maybe think of me and think of the discussions we've had. Anyway, he stuck it in his pocket, he had his breakfast, he wiped his eyes, he was gone and that was that.
Speaker 2:About six months later, when I was assistant director of education, there'd been a murder in the city and there was going to be a high-profile funeral. In fact the murder was done by a parent to another parent in my school, so it was, and as assistant director on silver command, we were asked to make sure that children there were plenty of activities going on in local parks to keep the children, you know, the young people away from where the funeral, which was pretty going to be lively, with people come from Manchester and Birmingham to protest and do all sorts of stuff, and police were really worried about it. So one of my jobs was to make sure that youth workers were deployed throughout the city with activities to keep kids well away from it, and so that had been going on and at the end of the day, myself and my two deputies we said, right, we're just going to go out and check out what's going on in the parks, because our youth workers are out there. They're on the front line. Let's just sort of check. They're all okay.
Speaker 2:So I went to the park, which was actually near where the school would be. So I wandered along there and I don't know, it was 6, 30, 7 o'clock, maybe a bit later and spoke to the youth workers and was just chatting to them when and they were sort of telling and they were saying some of the characters who were around and hanging around and I was thinking right. And then right in middle I saw Jordan, so this nine-year-old boy in the middle of some pretty lively lads, and he saw me and I saw him at the same time and I sort of waved him over and I sort of said Jordan, what on earth are you doing here? You know, what are you doing with us? And he sort of looked pretty guilty and we had a bit of a chat and I said come on, let me just, let me show you home, let me just see your home. And he lived just at the bottom, you know, across the park. So I walked with him and I sort of said to him well, how are you doing, jordan? You know how's life going and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And he put in his hand, in his pocket, and he pulled out this scrappy bit of paper and he just showed, he just handed it to me. He said I keep it with me wherever I go. Um, I don't let go of it. And yeah, it was really. It really hit me, it really struck me. It was something I'd done on a spur of a moment because I didn't quite know what else to do.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think of jordan a lot even today, and I thought of jordan when I worked for the department and I thought of other children like him who just need somebody out on their side who talks to them, will fight for them um, sometimes it doesn't need fighting for them, but will also give some pretty strong words if they're needed. So, yeah, that's probably the story that I would say Make me proud of you. And he brought tears to my eyes. I had to turn away when he got the bit of paper out of his trousers, which still looked really dirty and the paper looked filthy. Goodness knows where it had been. But I found, yeah, even now, I kind of feel a shiver going down my spine just thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I can see it's a powerful story for you, andrew. You said you think about people like Jordan a lot, so that's obviously a story you draw on.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that you know, in education education we're privileged to work with many, many children. I can still remember a good bunch of the names of the children in my very first class. You know, and I wonder about them and you think about them Because of course you know, our job is to sort of teach them, help them, shape them, sort of, I suppose, help them find what their potential, what they could be. You know, this isn't just a five-year-old, a six-year-old, seven-year-old. This is a potentially a banker, a solicitor, a carpenter, electrician, I mean a whole range of things. They could could be, um, doctors, etc. And and so in a sense, the children shape you as well and and there are many children who I think about and I think, gosh, I wonder what, what their story is.
Speaker 2:Now, you know, I wonder where they're going and sometimes you meet them. You know, I met somebody just before christmas, actually, in a christmas market. Somebody came up to me and said you know, are you mr warren? And uh, we got chatting and I was thinking, wow, you know, it was great to hear their story. But you think about that, and for me, certainly, when I was in the Department for Education, if I was making tricky decisions. I would have children in my mind, for how would this work out for them? I mean, it's important for the schools and the staff and all that stuff and obviously for the ministers I was serving. But you know, was it Lady Plowden sort of said, at the heart of the education system is the child, and I don't think I've ever lost sight of that. I hope I haven't lost sight of that.
Speaker 1:So thinking of your leadership philosophy, how that clearly is. Probably that experience is featured in there. How else might it have evolved over your career? You've had lots of different roles, andrew, both in school, in the local authority, teaching schools, council and then, lastly, the Department for Education. How would you say your leadership philosophies evolved, what you've learned along the way?
Speaker 2:I wish I'd learned some of the lessons the easy way. A lot of them fall in my face. There's a Japanese proverb, I think it's Japanese, which says fall over seven times, get up eight. And I've probably done quite a lot of that. But I guess the sort of you know there are certain lessons that you think when you're young I mean, I became a head pretty young, head teacher pretty young and I think I thought as I got older, certain things become easier and the chilling truth is that they haven't actually.
Speaker 2:So you know, one of the big challenges, I think one of the biggest challenges for leaders is kind of, you know, before you lead other people, learn to lead yourself, and I honestly thought that as I got older that would be easier. So you know, thinking about your moods, and somebody once said to me the mood the leader goes into the school building at the start of the day reflects the mood the staff have when they leave. That is such a powerful sort of picture to keep in your mind. You know, if I go in grumpy, they'll, they'll, they'll be grumpy, they'll probably take it out on the kids as well, and kind of that. You know, how do you learn to lead yourself. How do you learn to manage your inner script? Um, you know and be careful what you say to yourself and so don't believe you know, just believe the right things about you, be humble about that. I think that that has been a continual challenge and in some ways, as I've had varying successes of managing to lead myself, I think it has helped my, my leadership. So, you know, watching my mood, thinking about my energy levels, think about my resilience levels, just being open, um, to you know, how tough am I feeling today? How resilient am I in this moment? Am I a 10 where I feel superhuman? I mean rarely or am I one where I feel like a feather could just blow me? Oh, you know, I could be just blown over that, like that. And and not beating myself up about when I only feel like a two or a three today, but kind of really proactively thinking, well, what would I do to move that along? So, if I feel a three and I'm not in a great place, what does a four or five look like? What would I have to do about that? And I think, trying to be really proactive and thinking, you know, if I'm going to be any use to anybody else, I have to kind of, I mean, not be obsessive about it, but I do have to learn to lead myself.
Speaker 2:And I think that continues to be a challenge, and the power of choosing your mood. I mean, people used to say you're so upbeat, you're so positive, and I used to think well't say all the time, by the way, um, but. But I think for me that's the choice not feeling. You know, when you get out of bed, what am I gonna? You know, am I gonna grab every opportunity that I can or am I gonna be not today? Um, and it's hard, you know. And again, I sort of did one of the things which, when I thought about, when I thought about, do I want to retire, how do I want to retire? And all that was that the choice of choosing your mood is costly. It doesn't come easy. I haven't got this sort of injection I get every day of positivity or trying to do the right thing. For me it's a daily, daily choice and it's blinking, hard work. And again, I thought these things would get easier as I got older and they haven't. And they still remain a challenge, thinking about your opening story.
Speaker 1:Do you have the equivalent of the compliment slip that you gave Jordan of make yourself proud? That sort of? Is that reminder to yourself? What do you do to remind yourself as you go along?
Speaker 2:So I have this thing, I have a strong Christian faith, and my father used to say to me my father was a vicar and a wonderful, wonderful man. He died, actually, just after I started working for the Department for Education. It was quite a hard first year, but one of the things he would say was you know, live your life to an audience of one, and what he meant by that was live to please God. You know, from his faith perspective and I always thought about that quite a lot I mean, you know, sort of I want to please other people, I want to do the right thing, but actually, you know, I want to please God. I want my family to be proud of me. There are sort of other people who I want to please first, and you know I'm the father of two boys. I want to be a really good role model to my two boys. I want them to have a, you know, and I don't always get that right. But in a sense the challenge is, you know, my compliment slip is I want to please God, but I also want to please my wife. I want my wife to be proud of me. I want my two boys to be proud of me. I want my two granddaughters to be proud of me and not in some sort of sycophantic and obsessive way. But you know, there's a legacy. I think a lot about legacy. I think loads about legacy. And my team at the West Midlands used to laugh at me but I'd talk about um, the all blacks rugby team and um, I think I don't know if it's still the case, but certainly it was the case a few years ago that the all blacks rugby team men's team, I think I think it's only the men's team but um, they were the most, they are the most successful sporting team in history.
Speaker 2:And when you get a new cap you get given the shirt and there's a bit of a ceremony, I understand, about how the shirt is given. And when you're given the number 8, 9, 10, whatever, you're kind of reminded of the great players who have been before you who have worn that shirt and the kind of the mantra is which sticks with me and I can't. It's kind of like one of those um worms in your head is leave the shirt in a better place. And and I heard that many years ago but for me that's kind of like also drives me. That's my compliment slip is leave the shirt in a better place.
Speaker 2:So if I'm doing this job, this role, you know, leave it in a better place than you took it on. We'll take it, you know, take it on to the next stage. So there's a more of a story to tell. And again, not so that you know, people write great deeds about me. But just, you know, you've got responsibility towards the shirt, you've got responsibility towards the children in your class, in your school, in in the, in the department and and I kind of, you know, I think a lot about legacy, I think a lot about those sorts of things. I'm a skier as well. I love skiing off piece and I'm interested in tracks. What do your tracks look like when you've turned around and you look back up the mountain and you know, can I make them better? Are they, are they clean, are they? You know all that sort of stuff. So I think that the compliment slip is probably that um, it's a bit, you know, kind of my north star is trying to. It's kind of in line with my faith, but also leaving things in a better place.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that answers the question, but the the yeah the other, as I understand it, about the all-black story, it's rooted quite a lot in maori culture and the storytelling of understanding your ancestors and that you will be handing over into the future. So, changing tack slightly storytelling and using that that throughout your career as a leader. How have you used storytelling? Has it been something that you've lent in too much?
Speaker 2:My friends and family laugh at me all the time for telling stories. They say you can never speak about anything without telling a story. And it's because I think people are interesting and I like watching people. I like, I mean not in a sort of voyeur type of way, but you know, people are interesting and you know we all do funny things.
Speaker 2:And I think if you're a primary school teacher which is where I started storytelling, is it? You know you've got thirsty children, you know, and it's wet, they've had no play time, and you know, and you kind of think to yourself right, you know, you know, and they want me to teach fractions now. You know how do I bridge the gap and whatever teaching, whether you're speaking to children or whether you're speaking to adults, um, you know, and whether I'm speaking conferences or in church, you know I do quite a lot of speaking churches. You know how do you hook them in. You know how and how do you hook them into so that this is their experience. They can oh yeah, I understand that. Or, and, and often it's telling a story which brings the link and a story. You know, I have worked quite hard to develop storytelling and practicing it. You know I've listened to some great storytellers on YouTube. You know how do they land a great story and I've still got a lot to learn, obviously.
Speaker 2:But you know there is power in storytelling because, and particularly the power is that you don't need to explain it. It kind of drifts on, it's got like a ripple which goes on beyond the story. And I think that talking to children, you know, talking to adults, stories are powerful, they connect people and it's interesting. You know I mentioned my faith. I faith, I mean jesus spends the gospels. He's always telling stories, parables, and people say what does that mean? But actually that's the or isa. You know esops fables. It's the power of the story which you don't need to always explain it. It kind of it lives there in a sort of a in the cloud round by people's heads and it will come back to them thinking, huh, that's interesting. And so I think storytelling is important to me. But to tell stories you have to watch, you have to listen, you have to read, you have to be curious about life and about people. And I am curious and I hope I stay curious.
Speaker 1:Wanted to explore, if you don't mind, um so the human cost of difficult decisions. So I I imagine, um, you've had to make some really tough calls, uh, throughout your career and, if I think of your, your most recent um, uh part of your career at the department for education, perhaps around intervening in underperforming schools, academies, um, can you give me some insight or perhaps share a specific moment when you had to balance, perhaps hard edge data policy and then balancing it with the very human impact and in that situation, be on teachers, students and families, or it could be on on staff, but yeah, how did you personally navigate that emotional challenge and trying to get that balance?
Speaker 2:So I think that, yeah, I, I think there is a cost. I think that that that is definitely the thing to say, you know, and there should be a cost. If there wasn't a cost to difficult decisions, then I don't know that, one, I would have been the right person to make it, or, two, I would have necessarily made a good decision. Um, you know, you you sort of think about some of the decisions we needed to make about schools which have just gone through difficult times. Um, you know, and you're speaking to a ceo, probably on the worst day of his or her life, professionally anyway, about, in, maybe an inspection result that's happened, or maybe some other trauma has hit the school, or maybe they wanted me to do something and I was ringing up and saying, look, no, I'm not actually doing that. Or, you know, I've given a heads up, I might be needing to do this and I'm just ringing to say that I am going to do that. And probably not easy to talk about specifics, but I think that for me, what was important was to. You know, I've tried to have this pyramid of priorities in my mind. You know kind of, you know the sort of is it? You know, as the simon cynic said start with why. You know I'd be really clear what's my why here. Be really clear about my why, because I think the what and the how sort of follow on if you're clear about why. And so when I was making a decision, I'd be pretty tough with my team saying, you know, why do we have to do this, or why are we doing this and are there any other options and all that sort of stuff. Um, and you know, and trying to make sure that first of all, I'm really clear about why I have, why that has to happen. I think then it's making sure that there's strong evidence base on all that, you know, there's a strong compelling argument. I mean, if you're working for in government, I've got to be faithful to ministers and their policy, um, and so there's a question of you know I want to do, uh, you know I want to do right by them because they are elected to do that, but also, um, you know I want decision to stand the test of time. You know, one of the challenges during covid was that was really challenging, because the decision I made on a monday might need to be changed by friday, because and that was again that was a different type of personal cost, because but I think it is so it's making sure I've got my ducks lined up. You know, I've got all my evidence. I'm really clear in my mind, but of course some of it is judge it's judgment.
Speaker 2:You know, it's the sort of the human element here, um and, and I would try to meet with people and I'll try to talk to them and I try to listen carefully and I would often say, um, is that, you know? Do you feel like I've heard? Do you feel like I've heard you as well as I can? We might not necessarily agree with what I'm going to have to do or say, but have you been heard there? Anything else you want to say? And I've had that conversation with local authority leaders, with CEOs, with a whole bunch of people, but it is about sort of trying to understand the human factor in it, because there are children involved, there are teachers involved and some of our decisions would impact majorly on them. Um and, and I think that I mean I can't say to somebody else that I've lost sleep over, you know, because of the decision I'm about to make, but it is about being, you know, a bit about understanding gosh, when I make this call, there was a couple of things I needed to do before I left, actually, which are quite difficult decisions.
Speaker 2:I guess I could have put them off, but just didn't feel the right thing to do. And wrestling with it and wrestling, you know, and will it still look like a good decision in two years' time? Will it still stand the test of time? Well, you know what will this look like, and I think that that, you know, it's just being honest and saying you know, this is my job. I do need to make this call, the call has to be made. You know, I'm going to try and do it as, um, I want to look myself in the mirror, but but there is a, there is a, there is a cost, you know, and I think, um, it's keeping humble.
Speaker 2:You know it's kind of I I was, it was very conscious that it's keeping humble. You know it's kind of I was, it was very conscious that it's quite hierarchical. You know sort of government, you know the sort of the various stages of that, and that's right and I can understand why. But it's making sure that I am under no illusions, that I have a role, and as soon as I stopped that role. It stopped, you know. So this is not, you know. You know I am a representative of government doing this, but it, you know, leaving the shirt in a better place means I want to make the right call. But, yeah, there are plenty of decisions.
Speaker 2:I look on and, in fact, just just to finish this off, one of the things I did in my last sort of two years was I tried to revisit decisions that I'd made over my first three or four years and I visited the schools and the trusts and I remember visiting, you know, um, a trust where it'd been a real 50 50 call and MPs were, you know, they were basically not they.
Speaker 2:Everyone was telling me what I should do and how I should do it and um, and I knew that some were going to be happy and some were going to be pretty unhappy with me and that they would write and contact ministers and you know all that sort of stuff and and I kind of understood that and I was new in role, so there was a bit about I hope they'll back me for what I've done and I had a couple of those which I did in my first couple of years and it was great to visit those trusts again and to, I mean, almost breathe out with relief that that, yeah, that was a difficult call and you know.
Speaker 2:But I've been able to see with my own eyes that that was a good you know, a good decision and the right decision for those children and those schools. So, but it is about circling around, it's trying to be humble about it as well and thinking not everything will go well and not everything. But I want to myself and that audience of one I talked about, I want to feel like I did this to the best of my ability with everything I had. I didn't leave any stone unturned and and I hope that in two years, three years, four years, five years, this still looks like a half decent decision so you talked about the human costs.
Speaker 1:Um what? What did you do? Where did you go to re-energize if you'd have to make a difficult decision or the the challenges were coming thick and fast? How did you go out getting energy yourself?
Speaker 2:so I mean, I talked about my resilience level. So I think it's you notice sometimes that you you're in the middle of something and, um, I found the first two years actually really, really hard. Um, in in, you know, and I'd often be thinking my resilience levels aren't great at the moment. So it's thinking right, what do I do? And there are always people who cheer you up, there are always people who are energy givers and and so I'd be kind of, you know, I'd try to I mean not sycophants, because I don't need that, but people who would kind of not sort of drain me, but absolutely help replenish me, if I can put it like that. So I'd be quite proactive in thinking right, I need a bit of time of ex-friend, or, you know, I need to ring so-and-so, or I need to do something which is fun. So, you know, can I build into, you know, in my busy week is there something in there that I quite enjoy doing, or is there a school visit, or is there something in there that can kind of this will sort of fire me back up.
Speaker 2:I know, when I was a head teacher, you know, and you'd have bad days, days there'd be certain classes I just loved going into and sitting into. I don't know what the teachers loved it as much, but I'd walk in and just sit at the back and just chat to the kids. Um, try not to cause too much of a disturbance, but he just kind of went away feeling energized and it was, um, uh, in one of the schools, the, if I went into the kitchen the cook would sit me down, make me a cup of tea and make me a bacon sandwich and it was kind of like just being I think the thing was being conscious that that was quite hard, what I just had to do. And you know, I need to think about how do I replenish?
Speaker 2:The other thing I do is I love the outdoor world. So I spend a lot of time outdoors and I love skiing, I love climbing mountains, I love walking. Just kind of being outside gives a sense, perspective, and, um, whether it's the lake district, whether it's the french alps, it gives you a very, very different perspective on life's problems. And, um, if you're heading down a mountain at 50 miles an hour, then um, kind of your sats results seem less important. Sorry, they are important, but you know, but the kind of it's not. You're not obsessed with them. You're probably obsessed with not crashing into a tree or something.
Speaker 1:It definitely is something about being out in nature. Earlier this week this is my mum and I left really, actually really early, so I was up at half half five to travel back to the work, and, um, I just nipped out to the car and I walked back in and I just said, oh, I love this time of day. It's so peaceful, yeah, out there, but it was so. The birds and the chorus it was. There was plenty of noise, but it was. Yeah, there was something very grounding about being there in that moment.
Speaker 1:Speaking of grounding, thinking of the pace we all live at, whether it's in our personal lives or work lives, and I imagine you didn't have many dull moments at the department in terms of there was always something to do, something to call on your time. How did you go about? Did you manage to find much space for yourself to think? How did you go about that? I imagine a lot of your diary was planned out for you quite challenging. What did you do beyond, though, if you're going on holiday, walking, or how could you in a normal week, what were your tactics?
Speaker 2:So I think early on in my sort of headship career, sort of wise mentors that said you know, find time where you just, you know, you can call it what you like, and call it thinking time, you can call it catching up on email time, you can call it what you like, but this is a time where you block it out and you take charge of that and um, I remember talking to one leader about that. They just laughed at me and they thought you know how stupid is that? And and I remember thinking at the time, if the leader of the organization, whatever that organization is, is not taking serious time out just to think, then you're stuffed, you know, not to put it too bluntly. And so I sort of felt like I owed it to my team from time to time to take time out to think, and that is quite hard. You know I would typically have 12 meetings a day, you know, in the department, and you know my diary was managed by, by an absolute wonderful team. But one of the things I learned to do there, um, and they helped me with it was I'd give myself space, you know, and and um, I don't, I don't think I can't remember what I called it but I I didn't. I started calling it, thinking time, but that just felt I don't know. It just sort of didn't quite land properly and I think I probably put it catching up on emails. But I had a code for it and nobody was allowed to go into that space without kind of coming to me. So you know, my team had complete access to all my diary and they could send me pretty much wherever they wanted to send me or wherever I needed to go. But if it was in red and it got this code on it, whatever that was, um, probably, I think towards the end I just put keep free. I think that's what I did it. But that was for me and it was only I could delve into that. Nobody could sort of take that away. I guess a minister could, but I was and that was my space and sometimes it was.
Speaker 2:I just need I've got, you know, I need to read some things. So you know, for example, the advisory board papers. You know there are. You know that is such an important job to do, it's such a big job and you can have hundreds of pages of documents to read. I mean probably not for the first time I will have seen them before. But to read those through really carefully, it's not sort of, I can't fit it in 10 minutes. You need a good block of time. This is about. You know, I always used to count the number of children who would be affected, and I'd often say in advisory board meetings we're talking about the future, 9 000 children here. You know, 9 436, whatever it was. Sometimes it was more than that, and so it mattered that you really had space. But sometimes, you know, I just wanted to kind of reflect. I might you know what's my why here and and how am I doing that?
Speaker 2:Um, I think the other thing is that I spent a lot of time on the train. I spent a lot of time traveling the train. I spent a lot of time traveling. I think my first year. I did over 350 train journeys and I spent a lot of time.
Speaker 2:And so you spend a lot of time at stations, platforms, and it's quite hard to answer detailed emails with a trail on your phone. I mean, you can if it's just one-on-one, but if there's a trail on it it's almost impossible to do because you're not quite sure which bit of the trail you're responding to. Or I never managed, conquered that, and so, by its nature, being on a train, being on a platform, and anyway you wouldn't speak to people you know make a phone call in public at all, so I never did that. People you know make a phone call in public at all, so I never did that. And so trains were also a bit of a space for me to read papers, get my head together. For each of those 12 meetings each day I probably have a briefing, sometimes up to five pages, and so I needed to read that through and get that together.
Speaker 2:So but I think I recognized if I didn't do it I wouldn't be as effective.
Speaker 2:I recognize if I didn't do it I wouldn't be as effective. So, and sometimes it was just, I remember in Coventry one time I just said to the team I'm just going to walk to the cathedral you know, it was central Coventry just walk in there and just look around and then come back. And I didn't do that regularly, but I just felt there was something in my mind, I just needed to wrestle over and I couldn't do it in the office. I just felt there was something in my mind, I just needed to wrestle over and I couldn't do it in the office. I just felt there's too many things going on. So for me, though, it's important, and I think if leaders don't do that, then I think there's a problem, and certainly as a coach, I'd be sort of saying you know, why do you think that you don't need space just for you to think through how you're leading and what kind of a leader you're being in your organization? And it shouldn't be the holidays or weekends either.
Speaker 1:I want to switch to transitions, andrew. You've had a few in your career and I suppose I'm thinking particularly here about different changes. You'd have had a still a direct impact on children's lives, but perhaps a less, you know, when you're a head teacher of a primary school. Compared to the, the department, there's a, there's a direct, both direct but a bit different, but equally, I imagine that transition from the school environment to the department was quite a change and I suppose I'm also really interested in the transition you're in the middle of right now as well. What are some of the things that you're sort of learning about yourself when trying to let go in that transition that changed a slightly different environment for you.
Speaker 2:Okay, so two bits probably to that answer. I never thought that I'd ever do a job as much fun as being a head teacher or working in schools. I honestly never thought that. And so, when a job as much fun as being a head teacher or working in schools? I honestly never thought that. And so when I transitioned the Department for Education, I, you know, I mean a lot of people sort of said, oh Andrew, this is not for you, you're too much of a free spirit, this is not good. I mean really well-meaning people who cared about me and whose opinion I valued sort of said it would be really difficult. And um, the truth was, the first year was really difficult. You know, I, I remember saying to dominic herrington, the national schools commissioner, um, I mean after appointing me, mind. But I said I don't know how easy I am going to be to manage. I haven't really had a boss for since about 1994, you know, I mean, you've had chairs of governors and stuff, but not in the same way. And um, I, I think I might find it difficult and I think I might be difficult to manage as well. So I'm just apologizing up front. You'd have to ask him whether he found that to be true or not, but it was certainly was quite a shot.
Speaker 2:Going into, you know, a big organization like the department where you know you are, you know you serve, you serve ministers, you serve, um elected sort of politicians, um, and there are clear agendas and, uh, you know that and making you know, and so an understanding. I think somebody told me early on that one of the things you know civil servants are asked to do is to um, is it fierce, fearlessly advise and loyally implement, and trying to work out what that meant in the context of me speaking to a minister. I mean, I had spoken to ministers before a bit, um, but not lots, and certainly during covid we spoke to ministers a lot um, there was lots of engagement, you know weekly, more than that um, and understanding how you know how that would be. And I remember one of my first meetings with a minister. I ended up just saying yes minister, yes minister, yes minister, and then trying not to laugh because I kept thinking of sort of Sir Humphrey and others and just trying to the whole transition of hang on a minute, how do you do this job, and I think it took me a good. What? How do I, how do you do this job?
Speaker 2:And I think it took me a good year to work out how do I?
Speaker 2:Because I think I tried to be a civil servant and and somebody sort of said to me eventually you know, you just be, be you, you know what you have to bring, is you to the table? And kind of working out how that would be was not as easy as I thought it would be. Um, and you know, a huge credit to my team around me, both the west midlands team but also the other regional directors, or rscs as we were called, regional schools commissioners you know they were so supportive and challenging and and and quite and you know I've never been in a group like you in terms of the experience and the sort of wisdom and intellect, and so all of that was quite a transition and it took me a good year before I sort of felt comfortable in my skin, I think, and probably longer than that before I felt able to be me and this is what I look like in this role, and it certainly took me longer than I thought it would. So that was, that was quite an interesting transition.
Speaker 1:Um, on that one, andrew, just curious with those that that advice about too much of a free spirit and then the role you have to play what, when you you understood and you'd gone through that just be be you, and what that looked like was, how did you unpack that? Because on the on the surface that that would be in conflict, but you clearly reconciled it. How did you reconcile it?
Speaker 2:so you know I have been and I was and I still am, respectful of the, of the sort of how government has to work, um, you know of the elected nature of it and the way policy. You know, I mean in a sense I was a delivery person, so there was a policy coming down. My job was make it happen, deliver it and deliver it in the west midlands and contribute to the, the central group, and, and I understood that it probably couldn't be any other way and that you know this was not a time for free spirits and I don't think I've ever been a maverick. I think you're respecting the order of what's around you. I think it's understanding what is your voice. So maybe being a free spirit was the wrong way of putting it. It was about what voice is useful to say and what is true to me, but also helpful in this situation. And you know there were some discussions with the final points of policy where that you know there'd be people much better able to sort of speak on that and talk on that and discuss on that, to sort of speak on that and talk on that and discuss on that.
Speaker 2:For me, I think my role was very much the so what? So what will this look like in wolverhampton? What will this look like in sanwell or herefordshire, or stoke, or you know sanfordshire, wherever? And and try to be clear on that. So you know, I like the idea. But so how are we communicating that? And and coming back to what I knew, which was, you know how do we bridge the gap between government and the child in the playground and you know the teachers and school leaders who deliver all of that, and you know there weren't many people who had that sort of experience who could speak to that.
Speaker 2:So, being clear that, you know, why was I brought in? It was probably because I've got an experience of being on the ground and being in the classrooms, and it's about being true to that but also understanding, I mean, the job I did for six years. You know it was immensely, it was a huge privilege, I mean just to be in government during quite an interesting six years with all its different changes. But staying true to you know, how do we make sure that every child goes to a great school? I mean that was my sort of north star.
Speaker 2:That was absolutely how to keep kids safe, put them in great schools. That was, you know at any decision. That was it. I didn't need to think about a Jordan or a Callum or a Katie or whatever. It was our kids go kids going to benefit by going to great schools as a result of this decision or not. So I think it was using the first year, two years, to find my voice was probably harder than I thought it would be, but colleagues, and particularly my team and then the two deputies I had, were fab at just helping me work that out.
Speaker 1:And the hardest part of letting go, no.
Speaker 2:I honestly don't think. I mean, I'm a planner so I carefully plan this. So I sort of planned my last year what I want my last year to look like, if you like. And I remember chatting to the Director General, john Edwards, sort of saying you know, this is likely to be my last year. So there's some things I want to achieve, some things I want to do, but you know, carry on pushing me. You know I want to end on a high and you know what does ending on a high look like.
Speaker 2:I was quite struck by Stuart Broad when he retired as the cricket player. I mean his last game, you know, his last hit with a bat was scored a six. His last ball was a wicket and it came to my mind and I remember a friend of mine saying so what's a six and a wicket look like for you in this current role? And what would that mean? If you want to end on a high and kind of thinking through about the sort of way I'd want to leave the team, the decisions I make, um, and I think because I was clear in my mind about that, um, I was able to say I've done, I've run my race, I've done that. It's time to take the jersey off, to refer back to that and pass it on to somebody else to do it. Um, and actually there's tons of other things to do. You know, I wasn't I didn't leave because of any other reason that, I just thought it was the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:And I got loads of other things I wanted to do. I mean, I literally left my first, you know, and we weren't traveling in South America for three months. So I, you know, I did that my first day of retirement was a surfing lesson Um, again, putting myself way outside my comfort zone. Surfing lesson um, again putting myself way outside my comfort zone. So you know, and since I've come back, I've been thinking through right, okay, this is my experience. What am I going to do? Where do I want to put my energies? Um, nobody's telling me what to do, um, it's a blank page.
Speaker 2:And um, I, I people sort of said you'd find it really hard to let go. Um, maybe I would have done if, my first day of retirement, I was sitting at home just thinking do I get up at late? You know, I used to get up at 5 15. I don't get up at 5 15 any longer if I was sitting at home thinking, oh, the alarm clock goes at 7 now, not 5, 15, what? But? But you know, I sort of planned the first four months of retirement of and, in the sense of, come back and thought, okay, it's a different routine, I don't have to go to crew station for six o'clock any longer, um, so I mean, it's still new, but I don't feel I've, you know, I don't feel I found it hard to let go.
Speaker 2:I've kept in contact with people, but hopefully appropriately, um, um, I'm. Some things are coming up and I'm thinking, oh, that looks good. I chair a academy trust and that's really, really good. I love doing that. Some other opportunities are coming up.
Speaker 2:I'm just taking the time to think through is that what I want to do? I don't want to do nothing, but nor do I want to. You know I've got two granddaughters. You know I want to do. I don't want to do nothing, but nor do I want to. You know I've got two granddaughters. You know I want to spend time with them, I want to be there and I want to help and support them. And you know, um, and I'm learning a load of other. I'm also learning new things too. So I don't think I found it hard, but I think it was because Took quite a lot of advice beforehand from a coach and somebody who advises people on such things and he said be intentional about what you're doing and you know you steer it, you plan.
Speaker 2:So in my mind I've got my last year planned of work. In my mind I've got how I wanted to have my leaving due and sort of the kind of fuss or no. You know what was going to be work for me and then what the first three months would look like, so that I'm kind of occupied, which basically gave me space to think through. If you like, get work out my system. It was interesting we were in Patagonia for two weeks. Of those travel In Patagonia no one's asking you what you used to do for a career. In fact, in the whole of the three months I think I only mentioned what I'd done beforehand four or five times and it was only when people asked and pushed you know. So how come you've got three months traveling? So I don't know. It's sort of working, but it's a work in progress. And it's sort of working, but it's a work in progress and it's a new chapter and so far I'm loving it so we've got time for just one final question.
Speaker 1:I think, um, andrew, and having had that time to to think over the last three, six months, among lots of new experiences, by the sounds of things, what would your, your best advice be to a learning leader?
Speaker 2:so I think a lot about stephen covey and his seven habits. I have them up on my wall and um, and I, I think you know I mean seek win-win's good. But I actually think about begin with the end in mind and, and I know when this will sound odd, but when I was looking at headships I did five headships, but when I was looking at them I'd always want to, when I'm showing, being shown around the school, going to the school, and I'd want to stand at the front of the school hall and try not to make it too obvious, but sort of stand there and kind of imagine myself in the role and imagine myself talking to the children and leading some assemblies or parents or whatever else I was doing. And then I'd also think about the leaving. What do I want people saying about me? Um, you know, or rather about the impact that I might have had. Um, and and in my mind, if I was clear about that, then it was about right. What do I got to do to make it happen? Because I mean it isn't just a nice thought, it's about okay. So what do I do to make that happen?
Speaker 2:And I think that you know I've talked about learning to lead yourself and all that. I think that is a huge thing in new leaders. You know, manage yourself, manage your inner script, be careful what you say to yourself, because what you say to yourself is often what you believe. But also think about, you know, beginning with the end in mind. You know also think about, you know, beginning with the end in mind. You know how do you want it to be when you leave? And it might sound an odd thing and, um, you know, I've sometimes sort of said to new leaders so what do you want? I'm saying you're leaving, do, and they kind of look at me slightly oddly think, well, you know it will happen at some point. So what do you want it to be? Um, what do you want to say? And then, what are you going to do to make it happen? And because we are transitional, I mean you know no lead. I mean you know it's really interesting when you're a head teacher.
Speaker 2:Your name is on the sign outside the door. You know, on the school scene, as soon as you leave, they take it down. You know they'll cry and they'll, you know, give you a nice presence or maybe they don't cry, maybe they laugh. They don't cry, maybe they laugh, but as soon as you've driven out the drive, your sign goes down. And effectively as soon as I walked out of the Department for Education that was quite funny my last day, my last contact I literally got my pass and my laptop and all that stuff and I walked towards the exit with a couple of my team and we were going on to a meal afterwards.
Speaker 2:But I walked towards the exit and I handed it to my key card, to the security guy who I've literally spoken to every day for six years and he shook my hand and said it's been a pleasure all that kind of stuff, it's been a pleasure working with you. He took my key card and then he tapped on the screen. He said you're deleted and it was kind of like you know I'm now off the system. You know I don't have any government clearance. You know that's now all gone and it was kind of like a right okay when I walk out the door. That is it, and there's a bit about that. Happens in every job. Nobody's irreplaceable. But make sure it counts while you still have the opportunity to make it count.
Speaker 1:I'm going to sneak in one other little question, that sharpening the saw bit. What does that? What would that mean to you?
Speaker 2:so I, I've always thought that if you're a teacher if you're sorry, I suppose if you're in, if you're serious about being involved in education, you should have the heart of a learner. So, and I used to sort of challenge my staff with crazy things, you know, if you're not willing to learn new things, you shouldn't teach here. And I remember tackling an HMI sort of inspector who was coming to do phase one phonics test in the school and I said, said, before you walk around our school because it's new here, I just want to know what new learning you're doing in your life, because if you don't know what it's like to be a learner, you shouldn't be walking around this school. I wasn't quite as blunt as that, but I was nearly as blunt as that. But I just think you're learning new things and and for me it's about learning new things, you know, and and so I said I, um, I, I started retirement learning to surf.
Speaker 2:I had five, six, seven lessons I can't I don't know how many. Now I'm learning to cook um, I've got my first cooking course tomorrow, I think. Um, which is a bit terrifying. Um, and I'm also learning. I play the piano, and I'm pretty decent piano player, but I never played jazz, so I'm having jazz piano lessons and there's a bit about sharpening the saw, which is about, you know, learn new things and continually put yourself in the place of a learner, because it keeps you humble, you know. I mean, there are certain things. I am a pretty good piano player, but I'm not a good jazz piano player and so I'm literally going right back down to the bottom of the class on that. While we were travelling South America and I had a tango lesson utterly terrifying. It was probably the scariest thing I have done for a very long time, but that is a story for another time. But that's part of sharpening the sword putting yourself out there, because it refreshes you and it keeps you humble and it opens up new horizons.
Speaker 1:It's a wonderful place to leave the discussion. Andrew, Thank you so much for joining me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and I do hope our listeners have as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much indeed, and I wish everybody in education or listening all the very best for this academic year. Go for it.
