S05E09 - Series 5 Retrospective with Iain Blatherwick

Nobody is coming to make leadership easier, and that can be the most useful thing we admit out loud. We sit down for our Series Five finale to trace the thread that keeps surfacing from wildly different guests and settings: stop waiting for perfect conditions, lead from where you are, and build momentum with the people already in the room.

From there, we explore what it takes to stay effective when uncertainty is the default. We talk self care as a leadership practice rather than a luxury, including the need for real thinking time, “time with no purpose”, and the tougher idea of “living in the gaps” instead of filling every silence with a phone, a meeting, or a hot take. 

We also dig into why curiosity matters when leaders do not have all the answers, and how experimentation can beat the fear of getting it wrong.

If you care about education leadership, university governance, organisational culture, and better decision making under pressure, this one will give you plenty to chew over. Follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a review, what theme should we pull on in the next series?

Let us know what you think of this episode - drop us a message and connect via LinkedIn. 

Transcript

Welcome - series 5 retrospective

Nick MacKenzie 0:07

Welcome to the latest episode of EdInfluence. I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by my colleague Iain Blatherwick. Hi Iain.

Iain Blatherwick 0:17

Hi Nick. Good to be here.

Nick MacKenzie 0:19

So, as regular listeners will know, this is our end of series retrospective, a chance for us to step back and reflect on the conversations I've had over the course of series five and pull out some themes and moments that stayed with us. So it's a slightly different format from our usual episodes, but it's always one of my favourite to record because there's something interesting about looking at eight conversations laid end to end and asking what does this actually add up to? What's the series really about? So Ian and I have reviewed a selection of the episodes ahead of today, and what we've done before and we'll do again is the idea we'll come with a theme, something that generally struck us, and then we'll see what happens when we put all those themes together in the room. Before I hand over to you, Ian, I want to put a thread on the table, something that I think runs through the whole of series five. And the through line I want to suggest is no one is coming, lead from where you are. For

No-one is coming - lead now

Nick MacKenzie 1:22

me, series five kept returning from completely different directions to the same quiet reckoning. The conditions you're waiting for aren't coming, the cavalry isn't on the way. And the moment that you accept that this is the moment real leadership begins. And I think Lucy Easthope, she named it probably most directly, she had what I thought three quite activating words for emergency planners. Help isn't coming. And Steve West picked it up immediately and applied it to the entire university sector right now. But the same truth was running underneath almost every other conversation, even when the words were different. So I think um Andrew Warren talked about the courage to make decisions that will stand the test of time, knowing the conditions will never be perfect. Paul Estes talked about putting your own oxygen mask on rather than waiting for someone else to hand it to you. Andy Long talked about leading university through uncertainty by not having answers, by trusting people around you enough to find the answers together. Edward Fatalis talked about stop being British, so stop waiting for permission to believe your work is good enough. Charlotte Blunt, she put her own register on it. She talked about you've got to be courageous in leadership and trust people to be brilliant, not wait for them to be. So trust them in advance. And Janet Smith arrived at it from the most personal direction from anybody in the series. She lost her mother at 12 unexpectedly overnight, and what she drew from it wasn't trauma but a kind of bedrock that nothing can ever be as bad again. That doesn't feel like a leadership framework, it's something lived all the way through to certainty, and it produces exactly the same quality the through line describes. I think the ability to act without waiting for conditions that will never be perfect. No, I don't think that through line's pessimism, I think it's actually the opposite. But what do you think, Ian?

Iain Blatherwick 3:27

Well, that I I was about to say that bit about pessimism because I I the scenarios painted there suggests that you're in stormy waters and you've got to plan your route out of it. But I think Edward did also say talking about the sector, don't wait to be told by you know the powers that be, what's going to happen about the curriculum or or whatever. Don't sit back and wait. So I think I think there is a lesson here as well that even when things are good, make sure you're using that time to push on and do better. And actually, being honest, I'm not always the best making the most of those things, that those times when they're on an even keel, and then before you know it, something else has gone awry, and you're sat there wishing, cracky, I wish I'd made more use of that time there to change these things or to push these things on. So I agree. I don't think it is just always about the toughest times you find yourself in. Wherever you find yourself, so I guess that is lead from where you are. Wherever you find yourself, make sure you're still trying to push forward and make the most of the circumstances, whether you've got a wind in your favour or wind against you. Keep pushing forward. So yeah, I it was interesting the different circumstances that led to those comments. But but yeah, leadership is taking advantage of the supporting winds or working your way through those headwinds and and making sure that you've you've got the right people around you and making the most of it.

Nick MacKenzie 4:53

Do you think there's something in there that they were perhaps touching on about? There's a kind of clarity that you only get a vote once you you stop waiting, whether it's for help or whether it's for something else. But there's a clarity that perhaps comes when you're you're in the moment.

Iain Blatherwick 5:14

You know, a long time ago, well, we actually we're both this is like confession, Nick, a long time ago. We were both corporate lawyers. Maybe we didn't want our listeners to know that. But I think there is a bit of me that the adrenaline of a the adrenaline of a deadline or a completion meeting or something definitely helps me work at a better level. And maybe that's one of these challenges in leading from where you are. Maybe when there is that element of crisis, the adrenaline kicks in and so on, that you do raise your game, which is maybe why I'm not so good at dealing when things are a little bit calmer, that you know, maybe it doesn't push you on. I think I feel similarly when I'm doing my coaching, that the coaching I do best is when I'm coaching someone who I don't know their world, I don't know their environment. It's making me work that bit harder. And again, you're you're uh you're introducing an element of you're out of your comfort zone, you're having to work harder, you have to think harder. So it's interesting the different the different things that drive you and push you, and maybe being aware of those to make sure that you do make the most of those opportunities and and lead from where you are.

Nick MacKenzie 6:20

Was there was our through line for you, or was there anything else that you think kept on cropping

Self care and protecting thinking time

Nick MacKenzie 6:27

up for you in?

Iain Blatherwick 6:28

And there was a bit around self-care, which came through as a thread for me. And I think it's easy to overlook as a leader that you you need to look out for yourself as well, because otherwise, where are you going to get the the drive, the energy to lead things forward as well? Edward talked about mind, body, and soul. Lucy talked about putting yourself first, and then this developed into a conversation about how do you actually do that. There were a few references to people being addicted to their phones. I think Lucy talked about one of the biggest changes in education conferences she's been to over the last few years is that you walk into your room and everyone has sat there glued to their phones. You know, where do you get your your downtime with that? Paul also talked about putting down your phone. But there were there were with Edward, Lucy, and Paul, Edward talked about, and this was based on guidance that he'd been given, that sometimes he just goes into his office, tidies his desk, sit down, and look at the wall. And that's where you have your thinking time. Lucy talks about living in the gaps, and I know this is something we have explored previously, haven't we? I think going back to an earlier series, you know, I think it was Edward Peck who said doing nothing is doing something. And you and I have always been intrigued by those gaps, haven't we? And what you do in those silences. Paul talked about time with no purpose, which is a bit of a contradiction in terms, because I think it does have a purpose because it is enabling you to step back from things. But I think there is that pressure on a leader to be seen to be doing something to feel like you have things under control, to feel like you have all of the answers. But actually, you have to buy yourself time in here to conserve or you know, revitalize energy to make sure you do have time to think and to make sure that you are then ready to go and to go again when you need to. So that it was interesting that you you go straight from leading, but part of leading is making sure you're going to be in the right place yourself to lead people through those those moments. So, you know, I don't think there's enough focus on looking after yourself as the leader because your natural instinct is to be there and supporting and leading and taking others through whatever gets what whatever gets thrown your way.

Nick MacKenzie 8:50

So taking that that theme of looking after yourself, you you obviously led Browne Jacobson for many years, Ian, and carried on leaning in it in different ways. What have you learned about looking after your yourself?

Iain Blatherwick 9:07

A key part of it is the people that you surround yourself with, the people who give you energy, the people who will be there for you, the people you absolutely want aside you and those those challenged. But you know, I think I think energy is a massive part of this. And uh going back to that idea of deadlines and adrenaline and so on, leadership doesn't often have all of those moments. There's often there's a lot, a long list of stuff to be got through, and therefore you have to plan those bits which are maybe don't play to your natural strengths, and how do you make sure that you work your way through those and don't just gravitate towards the things that that you know you'd rather be doing. So there's that there's that stepping, it does give you a time to reflect on what it is that you enjoy doing, what your strengths are, where you do focus your time. But uh for me, it comes back to the people that you surround yourself with. And I guess that's partly in work and out of work as well. How do you get your break? I was always quite good at switching off. Music is a massive part to me, and it was interesting in in Lucy's discussion as well. You know, any it probably drives the rest of my family mad. But any moment I can, I will have music in my house. I haven't called them planthums before, but I I always have some music, music playing, and that absolutely takes me away from anything that might be top of my mind and helps put things into perspective. For different people, it will be exercise, it will be walks, it will be nature, it will be any any of those kind of things, but you do need to it just helps give give you a bit of perspective, doesn't it, on what what needs to be done. Give yourself time away from things. So and interestingly, and I think these were alluded to as well, we uh and a bit of a diversion. I I went to a book launch by Matt Haig about his his latest book called The Midnight Train. And in this book, without any plot spoilers, a man goes back through his life and and he realizes that actually the main moments in his life were not necessarily the big achievements or the you know the mountains that were climbed. There were quiet moments where maybe he was sat on a park bench and Lucy talks about those simple pleasures. And I think there's a bit of us where we all need to work out it isn't all around the next mountain that we've climbed. There are moments where you just feel good about where you are and what you're doing that we maybe don't take enough time to notice. And with all of the demands, with all of the challenges, with everything that's being choked at you at the phone, I think that I think the um taking chance to enjoy those simple pleasures. I can't remember who it was, and it might have been Edward just talked about those those weekend moments where you do just sit down and you're just watching a TV series and actually realizing actually this is this is enjoyable. So clearly we all take a pride in our achievements, clearly we all take pride in in getting ourselves out of big challenges, but we need we need to enjoy those simple moments too.

Nick MacKenzie 12:00

It's interesting music appealing to you. I I I quite enjoy my music, but this

Music, emotions and simple pleasures

Nick MacKenzie 12:07

music, for example, is used quite a lot in the movies to play with your emotions, and there's something quite human, I think the music can really tap into emotions in a way other things don't necessarily do. Do you think there's partly a a release sometimes that in the in the world in where we have to be quite logical, you're rational, you think things throughs, and finding the space for the emotional and the gut. Is there something in it that it's freeing up space to have that emotional reaction and lean into emotions a bit when you're listening to music?

Iain Blatherwick 12:41

Yes, so definitely, and it's different emotions, isn't it? Because sometimes I'll put music on and it's completely even if it's a bit of music that I love, it's the wrong moment, the wrong music for that moment. And I listen to as much new music as old music. The old music can trigger those nostalgia moments and you remember where you were and all of those things, but I love the challenge of new you know, discovering new things too. I I I think I I'm probably leaping forward slightly here though, because I I think I think emotions in work is

Debate culture and governance in meetings

Iain Blatherwick 13:17

interesting. Lucy talked about, and this is a sort of governance point, that have we lost the ability to debate? Have we are there too many moments where conversations are taken personally? She talks about you know accusations of why you're always so negative. Quite a lot of the people I coach are in an audit or a risk or a legal role, and then they will get that accusation of being too negative and or everything being taken personally, which is where I'm I'm linking it to the the point around emotions. But that that for me is a risk at a at a governance level. If we can't if converse too much in society at the moment, conversations are about scoring points rather than actually having a genuine, serious discussion and potentially changing someone's mind. And if that comes into the workplace in a leadership team, then there is not an open and on this discussion. And I think as a as a leader, you need to be right there at the forefront of being able to take feedback, of being able to take criticism as well, just so that you can ensure that within your leadership team things don't get emotional too quickly. You do realize you are all on the same side and that challenges, respectful challenge, is healthy. So I think that whole piece, I know I've leapt a little bit from music and emotions to emotion in the workplace, but I think we find ourselves at an interesting time there where that fear of upsetting people for people taking things too personally too quickly can get in the way of good decision making.

Nick MacKenzie 14:57

I think it's a really interesting observation, Ian. Taking that a bit further, perhaps, at the risk of going very far from where we were. I think one of the things you can see sometimes is it stops. I think you said you that you can't have a good debate and discussion, but it means things get left unsaid because someone cuts in because they they think, oh, I see where Ian's going with this, I'm gonna head him off at the pass and I'll get in now. And they may have been right, but there's every chance they were wrong actually. And if they'd let you speak and develop the point, you could have been trying to go somewhere else, but we'll never know that because they've answered what they thought the point was because of almost this feeling of point scoring and wanting to make sure that you defend your position. So I think it can spread quite wide that that sort of challenge.

Iain Blatherwick 15:49

Well, and there's a bit, I don't know whether you're about to excuse me of this. Sometimes my thinking develops as I am speaking. I don't want to get straight into the introvert-extrovert kind of discussion, but that's definitely a factor. So therefore, if someone does cut you off early as your own thinking is developed, you might not you might not have reached your own conclusion and then you you might just sort of get derailed at that point and have to leave things where they are. So there's yeah, there's a bit around the governance of the meeting and making sure people feel able to speak as well, isn't there? That that is yeah, something that becomes ever more important at a leadership level, whether that's the chair or the chief exec, who needs to make sure that, you know, if if people are sat around a table, that should be because you they're there by right, their contribution should be valued, and you need to make sure they get given the opportunity to to do that, and it should be a safe space for challenge, for honesty, and for making sure people think that are able to debate what is on their mind.

Nick MacKenzie 16:54

Can I go back to something you said a few minutes ago? You I think you were talking about from say

Curiosity when leaders lack answers

Nick MacKenzie 17:01

the corporate world and the cut and thrust of a deal in the the deadline to make the decisions. But then you also said around then about some of your best coaching is when you're not familiar with the client's context. I'm just linking that to something I know you mentioned before about curiosity when you're in an uncertain terrain, and therefore you you actually probably need to have your wits about you a bit more and you are being curious and and lean in. Does that resonate?

Iain Blatherwick 17:32

Yeah, and that chimes in with something that Edward was was talking about on this. There's a challenge in leadership, isn't there, with with that? Do you need to know all the answers? Do you need to be completely under control? He talks about some of the collaboration that they do, where absolutely open book about this is where we are, this is where we find ourselves, uh absolute honesty about as an organization. And sometimes as a as a leader, you don't necessarily want to share what's and all where you are as an organization, or leap into the unknown as to who you might be discussing those with us, to to to to where they go to. So I think there's there's a piece there that is interesting. Paul also talks about curiosity, and he has a brilliant phrase where you know, as he goes to bed, he's interested in a thing he doesn't know that he will learn about tomorrow. And I think in a world I was, you know, a a friend asked me if I could have a conversation with their daughter about a career in law. And I've never felt less certain what a career, you know, a future career in law looks like. But for people who are curious about how things work, for people who want to carry on learning, for me, these are the skills that will see people forward into whatever the future world of work looks like. And people have to embrace that step into the unknown and see where things take them. And that can be a challenge as a leader because you feel this responsibility for the organization that you're in and you know, where the world is heading. But I think it's something that that needs to be embraced and see where things get see where things get taken to, you know. I think again it might have been Edward who talked about, you know, innovation and trying things and and maybe you aim for the top right hand corner of the goal 20 times and 19 times you miss. But if you score that one goal and you make that that thing change, then as an organization, that is what the future is going to be like, you know, that's not around feel of failure, but if you can make that one thing land, then you know that's where we need where we need to head.

Nick MacKenzie 19:55

So I I'll put a different theme on on the table of something that that struck me. And in the

The rooms where everything turns

Nick MacKenzie 20:03

I think it probably was more in the second half of the series, I found myself kept coming back and asking guests about the moment things turned. Perhaps you would expect to hear talk of strategies, data, decisions made under pressure, but I think what I actually heard was talk about rooms. Bear with me a moment, but they were they were talking about specific moments in specific rooms when something shifted. They they just knew it before they could actually explain it. So Steve described it in the sense that he told his staff that he'd been crying in the garden during COVID, unable to fix what was broken, and his son came up to him and put his arm around him, and he told him nobody could, and that that was just a real moment for Steve. And that impacted him that he he decided to tell his leadership team and because he thought you know they deserved the honesty. And you you might think that perhaps what might come back wasn't was sympathy, but it wasn't, it was recognition that everybody in the room was carrying the same thing. But him telling that story surfaced it as a collective understanding that was perhaps there under the surface, but now was oak that was out there, and and Janet Smith, I think she gave really three three good examples, I think. And what was I think really interesting is she was she was able to recall the details really, really clearly. And I think there's something in the fact that someone can tell a story from knowing when it turns really clearly. That that I think in itself is fascinating and telling. So she referenced a moment, uh turnaround college in Manchester, where at the end of a long day, a a group of managers laughed at something absurd on screen. And she just felt in that moment it was a shift from they to we. It sort of it it felt. No, there's a there's an us here. And she also talked about a moment, I think in a a current college, about an offstead grade, and the college had had had struggled for a number of years, and she sent out the message and then she just heard these cheers from from the corridor. And so she couldn't see them, wasn't the same space, but she found that quite impactful. She also talked as well, I think about I don't think it was long after that actually, the same college about so I think it was reaffirming it. She was watching Staff Cry when they announced a £250 bonus, a Christmas gathering. I don't know they ever really had gatherings before when they're and it wasn't because of the money, it was because and she said somebody said it to her directly, nobody's ever done something like that for us before. And it was that that moment of being seen. And I think yeah, I found those interesting because they're sort of they feel like moments of catching that intangible of when a team stops being a collection of people working together in a building and something actually feels that they belong to, it's uh us.

Iain Blatherwick 23:20

And it it's interesting, those are gonna be sound a a bit contrary here. Those moments aren't always in it's easier in those moments which are a bit celebratory. But actually, sometimes coming back to some of the darker moments, when you realize that everyone is alongside you, trying to pull yourself out of whatever hole you have found yourself in, there are moments there which are massively, I was about to say reassuring, it's probably the wrong word, but where you realize, yeah, we really are a collective here. Sometimes as a leader, you can feel quite exposed in those positions. Crikey, how have I let us find ourselves in this position? And that moment when you Yeah, I think I think it you you learn a lot about organizations in a time of crisis. And when you're in a time of crisis and you realize that absolutely everyone is alongside you trying to pull out of it, I think are those moments too, because you realize you've you've created that sense of belonging and it's easy to belong in the successful years, but when people are belonging in the tougher times, that means something.

Nick MacKenzie 24:33

It's interesting. Steve also talked about that meeting culture. Now, this isn't, I don't

Pause to go faster meeting design

Nick MacKenzie 24:41

think, just related to tough decisions, but and he actually they actually have a a name for it, a form of word, so not unique. But they they talked about pause to go faster, and he talked about anybody can call it, and that when you're just there as a group trying to work through something and just someone can hang on a minute, let's just pause to go faster here. What are we flying past? And that that felt to me something quite important to being a genuine team. Because going back to what you're saying about governance, sometimes meetings can feel quite performative or people are playing a role, the word the script isn't perfectly written, but the general role is outlined, and you you add lib and then you get there, but things are left unsaid, and you can't do that. So that I found that really fascinating that they almost had had a name for it. And as I said, there's not a unique form of words, but if that's culturally like anyone has permission in a group to go, hang on a minute, let's just pause so we can go faster. I thought was fascinating.

Iain Blatherwick 25:40

No, and I confession again. I could remember meetings I was just glad to get through. And the purpose of them was getting through the end or getting to the end. Was that really the best use of everybody's time? You know, was that a meeting that really needed to happen? And we've probably all had those moments, but it is interesting to reflect afterwards have you done service, have you done justice to everyone who was there together at that point? And have you really worked out what that time was best used for? So it is, yeah, I think meetings are are I don't uh I think it might have been Paul who talked about, you know, trying to reduce meetings, and then one of his team members commented, but that's the only time I managed to catch up with this particular colleague, which sort of made him stop and think and he found other ways to. I think he bought them all, sorted them all canteen vouchers so they could all go to the canteen, but they had to be paired up with someone else. Um which is right, it wasn't the meeting, wasn't the solution to people meeting up, but it was interesting what different I think there are different perceptions of what meetings are for. And I think as a leader you can get fixed into, and as I say, being being honest occasions where there were meetings that are just needed to be got through. But actually, what was the purpose of that meeting for everyone else in there? And there might have been there are probably different reasons for those people being in there, and have you stepped back enough and worked out what you want to achieve with a meeting rather than just something that needs to be ticked off? Yeah.

Nick MacKenzie 27:08

Going back to the theme of curiosity for a moment. I I I want to different degrees, there'll be lots of talking, leadership and management discourse about building culture, about engagement, about trust, psychological safety. These are all things I think we can recognise. I do wonder whether we talk enough about that specific moment that that that moment you feel the organization become us. Because I I wonder if you felt it, do you know what created it? And you possibly will never know the answer to it, but I think it's an interesting question to ask. Because I think sometimes you might be, oh, that's great, we've got that. I do wonder whether it would be interesting to try and capture and go, ooh, what created that? And I said it may be one of those questions you can never answer, but I think trying to answer a question like that it in and of itself could be quite revealing and fascinating.

Iain Blatherwick 28:01

Yeah, and it it probably evolves over time, doesn't it? I um it's probably different as a new leader as to someone who's been in position for a while. You you you talked to Edward around the challenge of from an accountancy background coming and leading an education organization and what you know, did it feel like an outsider? What were the challenges within that? Which made me which made me stop and think around some of those challenges, because I guess your relationship with the people around you has to evolve over you know that initial skepticism that there might be. What was interesting was then listening to Lucy straight after that, because you know, Lucy's background in risk and disaster and so on. I realized I'd already got a preconceived idea of what Lucy was going to be like, and then she bounds in like a ray of light and energy and so on, and and that made me stop and think hard about you know how quickly I was leading to a preconceived view of how someone is, and something you and I have talked about in coaching before. You know, when I coach someone, I like to not know much about them or their organization before I have the first meeting because that way they are a bit more of a blank canvas to me, and and I hopefully get a more honest view of what they're like before their 360 reports get rolled out to me or any of their assessments get rolled out to me. But it did make me, you know, as a as a leader, you might have your own view of how you've perceived, but it it how do you actually work out how everyone else is perceiving you and how they want you to behave in any particular moment? And and as leaders, you I guess you get you get more adept at adept at adapting to particular circumstances, but it can be a challenge, can't it? Trying to second guess what people expect of you and how that evolves over time.

Nick MacKenzie 29:51

Indeed. I suppose you can have so many different audiences as well, where at that moment you could have quite a lot almost

Vulnerability Vs. Calm under pressure

Nick MacKenzie 29:59

being asked of you in a leader for different people needing different things. There's always a danger in episode like this where you're doing a retrospective of lots of agreement. Although I think we've I don't think we've had tension, but we have got we've got under the skin of a few things where there might have been difference. But I did want to I was reflecting back on the series and going, where where perhaps were there some areas of tension between some of what was said, and you know, I think I mentioned it with my episode with Lucy. I talked to Lucy about paradoxes, and actually sometimes sitting with something uncomfortable where something you think is a paradox actually isn't a paradox, it's just you haven't looked at it hard enough. But when you look at it hard enough, you can resolve your paradox. So it may be that we can resolve the tension I'm about to.

Iain Blatherwick 30:51

I think she said to you two things can be right at the same time, can't they? Sometimes it feels like they are. How can they both be the case? But you know, it's that stepping back and working out actually that both of those things can be true.

Nick MacKenzie 31:02

She absolutely did, yeah. So Steve West he opened with one of the most vulnerable moments in the series where he talked about crying in the garden and able to fix what was broken, and his his son's arm around him, and he he said it explicitly that leadership has uh has to find a way of connecting and being emotionally intelligent and not being afraid to show vulnerability, and that story he then told to his staff becoming the thing that connected everyone that I just mentioned a moment ago. But Andy Long noticed something else that pulls against it. He described himself as being the calmest person in the room throughout COVID, and and he reflected that sometimes people actually need you to show some emotion back. So that was his natural approach was calmness, and so you know, which is absolutely a genuine strength, but also could be a distance. So he was noticing, talked, I think, about learning to perform emotion he was actually feeling just to give others permission to feel it too.

Iain Blatherwick 32:06

But that that feels like a contradiction though, doesn't it? Because my natural instinct is in a scenario like that, wouldn't you want your leader to be calm? So again, it does lead to a bit of a tension as to how how should he behave. A, you'd want to be authentic, and if he is genuinely calm, you know, that don't worry, we've got this kind of approach, you would hope would be reassuring to people. So yeah, it's it's an interesting one as to how how we should have behaved in that scenario.

Nick MacKenzie 32:37

But I think that the one way of describing intention is there's a vulnerability that is real and shown can really galvanize and it can cross the rubicon. But leaders also carry a responsibility not to transfer their own uncertainty onto people who might need steadiness. And yeah, I suppose the trick is how do you judge what the moment calls for?

Iain Blatherwick 33:00

Which moment you've got to be authentic as well, isn't it? You can you I mean it if it if he presents as being calm, but actually there is levels of uncertainty underneath that he just allows to come out, then that's fine. Doing something a bit more performative isn't gonna convince anyone, I wouldn't have thought in those moments, is it? So there's a real yeah, there's a there's a balance to be struck there that feels quite a challenge.

Nick MacKenzie 33:26

Yeah. The we have come a few times in this conversation to crises

Crisis muscle memory and supportive cultures

Nick MacKenzie 33:33

and sort of moments of tension. I think it was Lucy talked about preparing. I'm trying to remember the form of words she used about the the fact that crisis will happen, but what you need to do is you need to reduce sort of have the muscle recognition to to get there so that it's not got quite as much stigma and that you're not having an immediate moment of panic.

Iain Blatherwick 33:58

Yeah. And then she also talked about bad health, didn't she? At that point, you know, often it isn't the moment of obviously often it isn't the crisis that turns out to be the longer term problem, but how you respond to that crisis. And I absolutely recognise that because the mistakes happen is how you respond to those mistakes. And in a regulated environment like we were in, you need people to have that assurance that if a make mistake does happen, the organization will be alongside them to sort it out. Because otherwise, if if if someone make does something wrong and they think the organization is gonna come down on them like a ton of bricks, they will not open up, they will not involve people and they will make the position worse. So, you know, I think that bit around, as you said, bad bad help, but how you respond to it. And again, I think that tells a lot about an organization, as I say, you can't, I think Lucy says, you can't rule out every instant that's gonna happen. But you have to make sure that people know they're in a supported environment and you know, collectively they'll work their way through it. If it happens a second and a third time, maybe that's gets slightly different than that. But you know, again, I think that's that is it about about an organization pulling together, working together to to find their way through things.

Nick MacKenzie 35:30

We haven't got too too much longer left, Ian. I was wanting to ask, is there a

Lines that linger

Nick MacKenzie 35:37

a moment that has perhaps stayed with you from the series? Not not a theme, but something more specific than that. A single story, a line, exchange, a person, something.

Iain Blatherwick 35:50

Well, the I loved Lucy's opening story about her wedding in New York, which might not be the example that you wanted me to come up with, but it does remind you that sometimes stars can alive in an amazingly positive way. And sometimes you can be lucky as a leader, and you need to make the most of those moments, too. So I'm not answering your question with one, but there are things which particularly resonate with me. That self-help, that taking time, that stepping back, that time with no purpose. The two phrases that stayed with me are time with no purpose, and being interested in a thing I don't know that I will learn tomorrow. They resonate with me because they're already things I believe in. The one that stayed with me that I am trying to ponder and work through is that bit about behaviors at a board level and a governance level, and how we make sure we get that back to an honest ability to debate, to discuss, to accept criticism, to make sure everyone understands that they're on the same team, because that's the best way that an organization will lead itself on. So there's moments there that resonate, but you probably know because they they chime with very much where I am as a person. There's a bit there though, that we're both interested in governance, aren't we? We're both interested in decision making. And Lucy alluded to something there that I do I do sometimes see in meetings I attend or observe, and how do we get that back on track? There was also a reference that Edward said about stop being British, that a client had made to him, sorry, a contact had made to him. Now we could probably create a whole new podcast on what being British means just at the moment, but let's not go there. I think there is that bit about do we often do we sometimes take enough pride in what we've achieved as an organization and how good we are, and using that as an opportunity to open doors and to push the organization forward, which I think the context that was used here. So yeah, there's that that piece about making sure that we make make sure we know those moments about how good you are and as an organization and use that to your advantage. So yeah, I I've picked a few elements there, some which shine with me and some which I think are a useful challenge. I'm gonna turn it back to you though. So is there something that's particularly stayed with you out of this series?

Nick MacKenzie 38:25

The honest one is probably one that I almost wouldn't share, but it's probably worth explaining

Living in the gaps

Nick MacKenzie 38:33

why, because the reason why it stayed with me perhaps is is behind that. So earlier well actually it was at the end of last year, I had an accident that put me on my back, literally, for longer than I I wanted, and I couldn't do much, I couldn't rush anywhere. In that enforced stillness, the kind you definitely don't choose, you can't negotiate with either. I found myself thinking differently, more slowly. I think perhaps about things that I'd perhaps sped past in in the past with the speed to go on. I was uh I happened ironically to be listening to Lucy's audiobook. I'd agreed with Lucy to record the podcast uh literally about three days before my accident, and I'd I'd I'd I'd had uh been listening to her book, and so I think the moment is probably more my moment than it is a guest's moment, but near the end of that conversation with Lucy, I brought something I'd been sitting with for some time since listening to a book. And actually you alluded to it a lot earlier in this conversation, Ian. Because I I I told her about my very first guest, Fiona Forbes, who years ago had said a phrase that just still I've recorded that three years over three years ago, I think now, and it just has stayed with me. She's like, look for the gaps. There's sometimes more in the gaps than what's said and done. And you know, that idea really resonated with me and has travelled with me through every series. But when I heard Lucy talking about not looking for the gaps, but living in the gaps, it sort of really made me stuck. And remember the moment when I was listening to it now, and it it felt like it was going one step further than that, not just noticing the gap, but and not just trying to read it, but choosing to live in it, inhabit it, and being present inside the uncertainty, rather than rushing ahead. And I'd I'd all I'd also been reading a a lovely book by a Buddhist teacher who I think he he writes, we're neither our feelings nor the story our mind tells us to make sense of them, with the vast silence that knows of our feelings, emergence and their disappearance. And I just absolutely I don't know, it just resonates with me a lot at the moment and just loves that that idea of the site it feels to me like a superpower if you can get that as a human of understanding you're not your thoughts, you're the consciousness that recognises them coming and going. So, yeah, three three different ideas, two from episodes in the podcast, one just from outside reading, but they seem to be reaching for the same thing. And I brought this up with Lucy, and she I think what she said back was just perfect. She talked about the whole premise of a lot of her work is that people are initially confronted by it, and then they have to work out what they feel, and that the value is in the space, the thinking, the time to give difficult thoughts rather than to rush to resolve them, which I think is why I mentioned to you about paradoxes a a short while ago. So, yeah, I think the accident taught me to, in its blunt and very unwelcome way, was you don't get to rush recovery, you don't get to perform being fine, you just have to be in it until you're not. And you you can't schedule that, you can't plan it in, you can't get it in before your holiday, you can't get it in before Christmas, or and yeah, so I think I'm I'm still working out and thinking about what living in the gaps means for me in practice. But yeah, I find myself returning to it in in difficult conversations, in decisions, not sure about in moments where the pressure is to act. I reckon you could you could probably recognise that. I think we've spoken about that before, but sometimes that something quieter says, hang on, just wait.

Iain Blatherwick 42:35

And do you think people I mean sorry I'm taking this from obviously a very personal experience that you had and a very enforced gap, but I I don't know that people are comfortable with gaps, and we will see this again with coaching that you know, are people comfortable with silences? But this almost comes back, it's a bit trite to take it back to to mobile phones, but when there's a gap, people will pick their phones up. You know, that that there's people we live in a world where there aren't gaps. And I think where there is a gap, people immediately look to fill it rather than actually enjoying that moment. Enjoy probably the wrong word given what you've you've discussed, but making the most of those moments and actually giving you a chance to to pause, take stock, and look at things. I think there is so much information that we're being bombarded with that that almost becomes our default position. We're used to being, you know, sorry to bring my kids into this, but you know, you'll be you'll be sat there watching a TV program and you're you'll turn around and kids are on the phone or you know, trying to do their homework or whatever at the same time, and you just think, whoa, hang on, we're trying to do too much with ourselves. And I think the uh in all its different meanings of the word gap, it would be good to find ourselves back to. And I think this does link to those simpler pleasures we could do with retracing our way back to uh those times where we're not looking to fill every every moment and to bombard ourselves with information, opinions.

Nick MacKenzie 44:07

Yeah I think there's an irony there of it's incredibly simple to just live in the gap, stay in the silent, but it's so hard to do. And actually the you know, certain situations it can actually be quite courageous because if it's difficult decisions or feelings, sitting and holding those feelings and examining them and trying to get through them can be quite quite challenging. I know not every decision or or gap would necessarily be like that, but um but yeah, perhaps then to end on on something which I hope may be uplifting. Well I wanted I asked a few of the guests in the series. I s I asked them towards the

Young people, storytelling and not knowing

Nick MacKenzie 44:45

end, what quality do you see in young people coming through now, whether it's your own children or it's young people you see in work or elsewhere that you wish you had or you you has wish you had more of I'll answer with a jokey answer which will buy me time.

Iain Blatherwick 45:08

I wish I could remember stuff the way that they can soak up information, but maybe I I could I could at one point that ability to this is despite what we've just said about gaps, that ability to just absorb and process. I think maybe this there's there's a link there, so so uh this is a a stepping stone on the way to the answer. I think there is a bit within education that and I like to see with my kids is is the critical thinking piece. So you are you are bombarded with all of that information, but how do you make sure we've got the critical thinking to challenge everything that is being thrown at you? It's interesting actually, some of the guests talking about AI and how we use AI and the fact we've all got to embrace how it goes, but it does lead to the next point. But how can we critically challenge what AI is telling us? And maybe that is a route through back to debate and discussion because actually it's uh something that doesn't necessarily have a personality in the face telling you things. So I enjoy that ability to debate with children around things and to make sure they're properly thinking things through rather than having it put through. But actually, I um a lot of this theme has been around stories, telling the ability to tell stories. And I think that sounds a bit trying, but uh kids are brilliant at telling stories. And do we value that enough? A lot of our your I might say your best guests. I haven't got a league table, but the storytellers are the best guests, aren't they? And when actually, when I think about it, coming back to what we've talked about before about looking at the world of the future and curiosity and so on, I actually think have we ruled out that storytelling is a key part of that, and clearly it comes through into authenticity and so on. But there is nothing I love more than my kids telling me a brilliant story. And actually, I think us teaching kids to develop those skills, because that is again how they will take people with them in the future, that is how they will become the leaders of the future, isn't it? By actually being able to turn facts or circumstances into something that is very human and that people would want to follow them with. So yeah, I hadn't expected that to be my answer, and it was a bit of a roundabout way of getting there. But yeah, storytelling feels like a good note to end on.

Nick MacKenzie 47:41

I love storytelling. It's come up a number of times just in conversations. I think you're right. I'm not sure it's spoken about or valued as much. And I don't I don't think good storytelling needs to be sort of polished to perfection, Hollywood style telling a story, but just authentic and human and conveying is I think what you're getting at. Um if I was gonna have a have a go at this, I think I I think it's perhaps a bit linked to some of what you were saying, but it what I see in young people is they they seem to have a comfort with not knowing everything in a in a different way. Sometimes there will be anxiety, but lots of time there is there's not anxiety about uncertainty that they're they're less detached to having the answer and more interested in the question, and I've seen more questions, and I think you said earlier about curiosity. So, and I think there can be that temptation to pretend you're certain about something, and that you know, I certainly uh think I would have fallen into that to that trap. But I think yeah, I've I've I've learned it's still a journey, I know it's a hackney phrase, but that working out and being curious and not pretending that you've got certainty. You know, we talked about a moment ago. Livy Lucy talked about living in the gaps, and I think that that willingness, as we were just talking about, to stay in an uncomfortable space long enough to be curious and let something real emerge is something I wish I had more of and see. I definitely see in in young people. So still definitely learn learning that. Well, I think we're out of out of time, so I think we'll need uh to end it on that note. Ian,

Final reflections

Nick MacKenzie 49:30

thank you so much for joining me today. I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. I hope our listeners have as well. And we we obviously couldn't cover every moment from what I thought was a great series, eight conversations with people who were as ever wonderfully generous with their time and their honest reflections and storytelling, Ian. Some wonderful stories. So yeah, if you've enjoyed the series, please do follow the show so you don't miss what comes next. But thanks again, Ian.

Iain Blatherwick 49:57

No, thank you. It's been good. And uh left me with plenty to ponder on as well.

Nick MacKenzie 50:01

So superb, a wonderful note to finish.

Iain Blatherwick 50:05

Yeah, thank you.